Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Matchlock · 1st June 2012, 04:10 PM

Hi Rick,

Your three-barreled handgonne is a hand cannon, no doubt about that, but it is obviously what most experts classify as Indonesian or Indochinese, and most probably 18th-19th c.
Please see

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...331660&page=27

In my recent thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15577

I tried to point out best I as I could the decisive differences in make between 'European' and 'Oriental' handgonnes.

Unfortunately, nobody has dared to respond so far.

Summing up the criteria I would say that 'the Oriental' makers generally adopted 500 to 600 year-old Northern European gun designs and have carried on building them for centuries with only very minor differences (e.g. both Indian and Japanese matchlocks are stylistically based on 500-year-old Germanic samples and their designs have remainded virtually unchanged).
In my eyes, the basic criteria of identifying a piece as 'Germanic' and 'Gothic' are a more solid make and the patina, though the latter point can be tricky indeed. The smoother and rounder the whole item appears and the smaller, beveled and 'rounded' the reinforcing rings are the more 'Oriental' the thing is.

Genuinely early 'Germanic' barrels characteristically feature heavily swamped breech and muzzle sections, noticeably tapering in between. The plainer and more uniform the barrels are the 'younger' the piece normally is.

In more than thirty years of closest possible study, I have not seen one single three- or four-barreled handgonne, either of wrought iron or of cast bronze, that I would have accepted as truly Germanic - and Gothic.

The first scan attached, of a wrought-iron three-barrel gonne, is from Howard L. Blackmore's still valuable and recommended (cheap!) paperback Firearms, London, Dutton Vista, 1964, p. 26.

The second, of a cast-bronze three-barrel item, is from Hermann Historica's auction of March 19, 1983; the piece was labeled as 'German, 15th c.' and fetched 10,500 DM plus 23 per cent commission.

At Christie's sale on November 20, 1991, I bought a lot of two wrought-iron gonnes 'of archaic type', one with four and the other with three barrels, both labeled as Chinese, for 550 GBP plus commission (lot 133). They retained a portion of their original hafts each which I had examined closely at the Munich Ethnographic Museum, and it turned out that they were of a certain type of Indochinese hardwood. The iron patina was really charming though and the make of the three-barreled item looked a lot like 'Germanic' and 'Gothic' as well. The examination finished, I sold them for what they obviously were: Indochinese. As they were the only samples known to retain their original (though shortened) hafts I got more than I had paid.

As your gonne was not that costly I guess it is no doubt an interesting item.

Best,
Michael

1st June 2012, 04:10 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, Your three-barreled handgonne is a hand cannon, no doubt about that, but it is obviously what most experts classify as Indonesian or Indochinese, and most probably 18th-19th c. Please see http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...331660&page=27 In my recent thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15577 I tried to point out best I as I could the decisive differences in make between 'European' and 'Oriental' handgonnes. Unfortunately, nobody has dared to respond so far. Summing up the criteria I would say that 'the Oriental' makers generally adopted 500 to 600 year-old Northern European gun designs and have carried on building them for centuries with only very minor differences (e.g. both Indian and Japanese matchlocks are stylistically based on 500-year-old Germanic samples and their designs have remainded virtually unchanged). In my eyes, the basic criteria of identifying a piece as 'Germanic' and 'Gothic' are a more solid make and the patina, though the latter point can be tricky indeed. The smoother and rounder the whole item appears and the smaller, beveled and 'rounded' the reinforcing rings are the more 'Oriental' the thing is. Genuinely early 'Germanic' barrels characteristically feature heavily swamped breech and muzzle sections, noticeably tapering in between. The plainer and more uniform the barrels are the 'younger' the piece normally is. In more than thirty years of closest possible study, I have not seen one single three- or four-barreled handgonne, either of wrought iron or of cast bronze, that I would have accepted as truly Germanic - and Gothic. The first scan attached, of a wrought-iron three-barrel gonne, is from Howard L. Blackmore's still valuable and recommended (cheap!) paperback Firearms, London, Dutton Vista, 1964, p. 26. The second, of a cast-bronze three-barrel item, is from Hermann Historica's auction of March 19, 1983; the piece was labeled as 'German, 15th c.' and fetched 10,500 DM plus 23 per cent commission. At Christie's sale on November 20, 1991, I bought a lot of two wrought-iron gonnes 'of archaic type', one with four and the other with three barrels, both labeled as Chinese, for 550 GBP plus commission (lot 133). They retained a portion of their original hafts each which I had examined closely at the Munich Ethnographic Museum, and it turned out that they were of a certain type of Indochinese hardwood. The iron patina was really charming though and the make of the three-barreled item looked a lot like 'Germanic' and 'Gothic' as well. The examination finished, I sold them for what they obviously were: Indochinese. As they were the only samples known to retain their original (though shortened) hafts I got more than I had paid. As your gonne was not that costly I guess it is no doubt an interesting item. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 1st June 2012 at 10:20 PM.