QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Thank you for the clarification Ibrahiim, I was hoping you would come in on this as you have been responsible for the considerable advances we have gained toward these and the range of Arabian weapons in Oman and other areas there.
2.I had thought these might be examples of the 'dancing' saif you have discussed, which is why I used the term 'modern' as Rick noted. In my understanding these type swords which have been termed collectively as 'kattara' in collectors circles for years, it seems that the more rigid blades were indeed combat intended, and these certainly must have diffused widely as they are well known in Zanzibar, the Omani Sultanate in East Africa.
It seems we discussed the movement of blades throughout Yemen and the southern Arabian regions both via coastal routes and caravans through interior.
3.I think that as Emanuel has noted, much of the classification developed through our discussions has become confusing, and possibly we might reiterate.
4.First of all, it is important I think, to note that the Arabian term sa'if or sayf is a collective term used for 'sword' ,not necessarily otherwise specified.
It can be used to describe a broadsword (as kaskaras, and others), a single edged sword (often denoted as a backsword) or varying forms of sabres (from nimcha to shamshir etc).
5.The old Omani battle sword, originally described in Robert Elgood's "Arabian Arms and Armour" (2.15) as presumed to be a kind of proto-kattara, has been now realized to be a traditionally long standing type of combat sword, typically with shorter blade, and common to Omans interior with primarily Ibathi Muslim associations. The style of these hilts are believed to have quite early stylistic origins.
6.The often cylindrically hilted broadswords long associated with Oman, and often with blades quite similar to those on kaskaras and other German oriented trade blades are believed to be associated with Muscat, and the trade oriented coastal regions, thus thier wide diffusion. These are typically termed 'kattara', again in a collectors sense, and I personally consider them and those found with curved blades, also kattara in the common parlance.
These are often sumptiously decorated with silver and fine mounts, as I believe these were worn as status symbols by merchants and individuals of high station.
7.The dancing versions of kattara, are with varying versions of the cylindrical to flattened cylinder or cuff type hilt (like these) but with blades which are dramatically flexible, a key element of the ceremonial Funoon which has been well described by Ibrahiim in discussions.
8.Since swords remained widely in use in an around Arabia well into the 20th century (in many places of course they still are), this brought my 'modern' term, in the sense that regardless of age of the blades, these are traditionally remounted through many generations. Naturally in many cases they are worn as accoutrements, and may often end up in souks and bazaars from trades with tribesmen as well as those which may sometimes be produced commercially.
9.I think that in general discussion the term kattara serves well collectively for this form of hilt, though the old Omani hilt is best noted descriptively. The others with developing or hybridized hilt are probably best described as Omani kattara variant, as well as the curved blade examples.
In focused scholarly discussion naturally more detailed description and categorization would be expected.
All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]
My reference is Kattara for comment at~
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455
Salaams Jim, I hope you don't mind me numbering your paragraphs and setting the blue colour so I may reply accordingly to each one:
Para 1 Thank you for that and the support on the subject from yourself and many others on Forum. I believe the hot anvil of debate cracked this one wide open though there are a few answers to questions still to be determined such as where precisely was the Old Battle Sword made? When exactly did the dancing sword appear and thus a similar date on the conical flat long hilt...which appears on both the dancer and the slave trader weapon? Where were the dancing blades manufactured ? No evidence exists whatsoever of a European base for Omani dancing swords/blades..Red Sea swords yes, Omani dancing swords no. Where blade marks have been viewed on Omani swords these have been placed by smiths in Mussandam and other parts of Oman and where occasionally a European mark appears like moons(peter Munch style) or the running wolf they are clearly copied and in most cases roughly so.
Para 2. When I first saw these blades some time ago it set me off down a wild goose chase after a non existent sword group as I had linked them to the Old Omani Battle Sword...Sayf Yamaani... These Saudia blades are thicker and quite rigid and even a little broader at the throat. They are certainly Saudia/ Yemeni items. There may be a Hadramauti link. I cannot say if they were fighting weapons though they seem capable of it and are heavy enough. They crop up in Muscat souk and the source is Sanaa... confirmed. Whatever they were in the old days (if they were around then) they are now being sold as Arabian swords on the tourist network. I even have one of these hilts fitted with an Ethiopian (German) blade.
Para 3 and 4. Notwithstanding the International sword nomenclature... Straight swords are Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved are Kattara. As you point out ,however, the generic term for all swords here is Sayf (or Saif)
Para 5. Robert Elgood is an excellent historian and Ethnographic Arma and Armour specialist. I see that he was at Nizwa this week giving a presentation on The Said Bin Sultan Sword. (The owner ruled in Oman from 1804 to 1866 and one of his wives, the infamous
Sheherazad , designed the Royal Bussaidi Hilt to a Khanjar and Sword and the Royal Turban).
In addition, however, I have crosslinked this sword through the Funoon as the traditional Omani Battle Sword. No one else has done this. This is the ancient Sayf wa Terrs from the earliest period in Ibathi history when they were fighting the Abasiid here. I have compared its design in 12 separate ways with the Abassiid weapon at the Topkapi museum and shown proof that this was a slash and chop weapon for fast work behind and with the buckler shield. (No other sword researcher has attempted this). see reference
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 post
One of the great clues which inspired me was the introduction in Islamic Arms and Armour by the late Antony North where he describes the effect of weapons freeze in Islamic lands. That sword froze from then til now! Even today it is being Iconized and worn by VIPs etc.
Para 6. The flatish cylindrical hilt seen on curved Omani Kattara is indeed the weapon chosen by Merchants and Slave traders. When did the cylindrical flatish hilt appear and apparently it appeared on the dancing sword ~ did this switch happen at the same time? What is the date of the appearance of the long flat cylinder hilt? As a provisional date I have scribbled in 1744 since I think the dancing sword appeared about then as an Al Bussaidi sword of dance in respect of the forefathers...the users of the old sword(sayf Yamaani). Then I assume it jumped from the dancer to the long curved heavy backbladed Kattara... for Vips; Royalty Merchants and Slavetraders..
Para 7. The Dancing straight Omani Sayf... (Whats in a name?...Its a Sayf) Not Kattara... Kattara aren't flexible. Sayfs are.
Para 8. I agree. Many swords get rehilted and more so for the tourist market. My Saudi hilted German bladed Ethiopian sword was fitted together in Muscat. The same has happened in Sanaa... It's part of the game.
Para 9. I don't know ... Personally if someone is referring to a blade they can use the proper description or add the details. They can call it a Sayf... and add the details but using the name Kattara which is a non Arab word that no one knows either what it means and it only arrived late on the scene... I suggest ought only be used for curved variants. Its not that vital so long as the information is clear. I think we will be living with the anomaly for a while ...ha !
" The Straights the Sayf The Curved is The Kattara..."
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi