Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 1st November 2015, 07:56 AM

Thanks for asking, but no, no additional pics or info would assist, I'd really need to handle them.

I have a whole heap of photos of old keris that are in museums in Europe, many were collected pre-1800, some pre-1700. If these keris were stripped of dress and even very, very good photos were presented for opinion probably most people would guess them at less than 100 years old. You just cannot tell very much from a photograph.

Even when you have it in your hand, it becomes an educated guess to put an age on it.

The major problem with trying to put age on a keris is that within Javanese culture nobody takes any notice, nor has any desire to establish the true age of a keris. Keris people use the tangguh system, which is really a system of classification originally developed for reasons other than to establish age per se, but it is still the foundation of any attempt to establish age.

Sound contradictory?

It is.

But we can more or less establish a tangguh from the relevant indicators, and if those indicators point to a recent period, such as, for example, Surakarta, we can have a reasonable degree of certainty that in fact we are looking at a keris from the Surakarta era, and condition will provide a broad guideline to actual age --- not that this is particularly important to the people who own this cultural artifact, that is, the Javanese, because what they base their appreciation on is not age at all, in fact nothing at all to do with age, but rather artistic content, and in some cases whether the keris is "alive", or "empty".

Yes, age is very often important to collectors in the western world, but these collectors have constructed their own value system, and it relates only very faintly to the value system that applies in Jawa, which is constructed on artistic interpretation and the esteem in which any particular historic era is held, this esteem is principally related to the concepts of honour and power.

Many Javanese keris conscious people will align tangguh to the historic era that has provided the name for the tangguh, but very often this belief is based as much on myth and legend as on reality.

Only a couple of hours ago I was handling a keris that in my opinion dates from the late 16th through to the early 17th century. I can provide reasons for my opinion, but that opinion is based on my very lengthy experience with some input from the tangguh system. It is not in the terms of the Western World an opinion which can be defended.

This is the crux of the matter:- we can fly our opinions to our hearts' content, but if we cannot defend those opinions, of what value are they?

Quite simply, there is no reasonably reliable system in existence that will assist in establishing the true age of a keris blade. With experience we can differentiate between old and recent, but the overlaps are considerable, as is the possibility of error.

1st November 2015, 07:56 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	Thanks for asking, but no, no additional pics or info would assist, I'd really need to handle them. I have a whole heap of photos of old keris that are in museums in Europe, many were collected pre-1800, some pre-1700. If these keris were stripped of dress and even very, very good photos were presented for opinion probably most people would guess them at less than 100 years old. You just cannot tell very much from a photograph. Even when you have it in your hand, it becomes an educated guess to put an age on it. The major problem with trying to put age on a keris is that within Javanese culture nobody takes any notice, nor has any desire to establish the true age of a keris. Keris people use the tangguh system, which is really a system of classification originally developed for reasons other than to establish age per se, but it is still the foundation of any attempt to establish age. Sound contradictory? It is. But we can more or less establish a tangguh from the relevant indicators, and if those indicators point to a recent period, such as, for example, Surakarta, we can have a reasonable degree of certainty that in fact we are looking at a keris from the Surakarta era, and condition will provide a broad guideline to actual age --- not that this is particularly important to the people who own this cultural artifact, that is, the Javanese, because what they base their appreciation on is not age at all, in fact nothing at all to do with age, but rather artistic content, and in some cases whether the keris is "alive", or "empty". Yes, age is very often important to collectors in the western world, but these collectors have constructed their own value system, and it relates only very faintly to the value system that applies in Jawa, which is constructed on artistic interpretation and the esteem in which any particular historic era is held, this esteem is principally related to the concepts of honour and power. Many Javanese keris conscious people will align tangguh to the historic era that has provided the name for the tangguh, but very often this belief is based as much on myth and legend as on reality. Only a couple of hours ago I was handling a keris that in my opinion dates from the late 16th through to the early 17th century. I can provide reasons for my opinion, but that opinion is based on my very lengthy experience with some input from the tangguh system. It is not in the terms of the Western World an opinion which can be defended. This is the crux of the matter:- we can fly our opinions to our hearts' content, but if we cannot defend those opinions, of what value are they? Quite simply, there is no reasonably reliable system in existence that will assist in establishing the true age of a keris blade. With experience we can differentiate between old and recent, but the overlaps are considerable, as is the possibility of error.