Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Joe · 21st January 2007, 09:03 AM

I agree Jim, too much time has passed since the use of these weapons, for us to do much more than speculate on their origins and uses. But as long as we're speculating, we may as well voice our opinions.

A good start is stepping back and drawing conclusions from swords indiginous to other countries. The raised ridge also appears on Russian, Indian, and Chinese swords, albeit at a much later time than those found on early falchions and Turkish swords.

Most evidence concludes that the Indian tulwar (introduced in the 1700's?) gained its (albeit uncommon) dorsal ridge as a result of influence from Persian and further blades, and I'm inclined to agree with this end. But the Chinese niuweidao, introduced in the 1800's (although new evidence is pointing to proto-nuiweidaos developing in the 1700's) had a dorsal ridge for the purpose of adding weight to the tip of the sword, and increasing its capacity for chopping. It reached this purpose because the primary users of the nuiweidao were peasents, who were not trained in sword arts and thus had very limited applicable techniques, and relied on chopping strength in favor of more advanced abilities. And then there is the Russian klytch, which more than a few old pictures and a current auction, I know nothing about. However, it is apparent from its appearance that it is directly related to the Turko-Persian sabers featuring yelmans.

Working from these three examples, we find that:
Klytch=Influenced origin
Nuiweidao=Independent origin
Tulwar(yelman)=Influenced origin

Working on this as a rule, we find that while the dorsal ridge on blades is likely to be influenced from other cultures, it also has the capacity to develop independently. And working back from this, let us observe the dorsal ridges on earlier blades. Certainly they appear on falchions and messers of the 16th century. But you've indicated that you have seen them on earlier period swords. I'd love to see any pics you have (if you couldn't tell, I share your enthusiasm for this sort of thing).

However, I have seen them on Turkish swords of the 15th century. One great example is the one attributed to Mehmed II, and dates to the mid-1400's. Another (provided below) is Mamluk, and goes back to the early 1400's. And a final one is attributed to Sultan Bayezid II, son of Mehmed II (weird how they're both The Second though....), late 1400's.

And then, I have another gap in my information. But continuing earlier, they appear in the 8th century. The most famous of one of which is undoubtedly the sword long-attributed to being used by Charlemagne, but since proven to have been merely a presentation gift to him from either the Magyars, Avars, or Huns (I am not entirely positive exactly who gave it to him). But it is not the attribution which draws attention to this sword, but the very long dorsal ridge.

And then, going the furthest back I can at the moment, it appears that the earliest sabers found with this feature are Bulgarian, and date to pre-7th century. And there we have it.

But anyway, on to the pics I posted earlier. The first passed through eBay in late 2005. It was identified as Polish by the seller, but he isn't the best at correctly identifying swords (last December, he sold an Afghan shashka which he incorrectly attributed to Russia. Ariel posted a thread about it.), so there is a definite possibility that it may be Hungarian, or Georgian. Here's a link to his eBay store if you were interested:
http://stores.ebay.com/Eclectic-Muse...QQftidZ2QQtZkm

The second is from:
http://www.hessink.nl/
It is item number 1428 in their current catalogue.

The third was really just a lark, showing that even though it only bore a slight resemblence to the genuine article, this is the image of the "scimitar" that has remained in popular culture, even to today! And I agree, it does bear a resemblence to the Chinese dadao of the 1800's and early 1900's, but I think we're probably drawing an imaginary line of relation. And yes, I noted the unusual guard and handle. Quite an amalgamation, this piece! But then, I have seen one similar Indian piece.... but besides that, I have no idea if the piece is part of a collection, but it probably is. It passed through the market sometime in the middle of last year, I think.

My, I wrote quite a bit, didn't I? Sorry, if I misspelled anything.

For those impetuous people who read my posts only for the pics I always include, here's the part where you pay attention.

Starting at the top...
1: Various sabers and falchions, most from the 16th century.
2: Sword of Sultan Bayezid II.
3: Sword of Mehmed II.
4: Mamluk sword, early 15th century.
5: Mamluk sword, 15th century.
6: Various old kilics.
7: Saber owned by Charlemagne.
8: Bulgarian sabers, pre-7th century.
9: The REAL oldest single-edged sword with a dorsal ridge.

21st January 2007, 09:03 AM	#12
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	I agree Jim, too much time has passed since the use of these weapons, for us to do much more than speculate on their origins and uses. But as long as we're speculating, we may as well voice our opinions. A good start is stepping back and drawing conclusions from swords indiginous to other countries. The raised ridge also appears on Russian, Indian, and Chinese swords, albeit at a much later time than those found on early falchions and Turkish swords. Most evidence concludes that the Indian tulwar (introduced in the 1700's?) gained its (albeit uncommon) dorsal ridge as a result of influence from Persian and further blades, and I'm inclined to agree with this end. But the Chinese niuweidao, introduced in the 1800's (although new evidence is pointing to proto-nuiweidaos developing in the 1700's) had a dorsal ridge for the purpose of adding weight to the tip of the sword, and increasing its capacity for chopping. It reached this purpose because the primary users of the nuiweidao were peasents, who were not trained in sword arts and thus had very limited applicable techniques, and relied on chopping strength in favor of more advanced abilities. And then there is the Russian klytch, which more than a few old pictures and a current auction, I know nothing about. However, it is apparent from its appearance that it is directly related to the Turko-Persian sabers featuring yelmans. Working from these three examples, we find that: Klytch=Influenced origin Nuiweidao=Independent origin Tulwar(yelman)=Influenced origin Working on this as a rule, we find that while the dorsal ridge on blades is likely to be influenced from other cultures, it also has the capacity to develop independently. And working back from this, let us observe the dorsal ridges on earlier blades. Certainly they appear on falchions and messers of the 16th century. But you've indicated that you have seen them on earlier period swords. I'd love to see any pics you have (if you couldn't tell, I share your enthusiasm for this sort of thing). However, I have seen them on Turkish swords of the 15th century. One great example is the one attributed to Mehmed II, and dates to the mid-1400's. Another (provided below) is Mamluk, and goes back to the early 1400's. And a final one is attributed to Sultan Bayezid II, son of Mehmed II (weird how they're both The Second though....), late 1400's. And then, I have another gap in my information. But continuing earlier, they appear in the 8th century. The most famous of one of which is undoubtedly the sword long-attributed to being used by Charlemagne, but since proven to have been merely a presentation gift to him from either the Magyars, Avars, or Huns (I am not entirely positive exactly who gave it to him). But it is not the attribution which draws attention to this sword, but the very long dorsal ridge. And then, going the furthest back I can at the moment, it appears that the earliest sabers found with this feature are Bulgarian, and date to pre-7th century. And there we have it. But anyway, on to the pics I posted earlier. The first passed through eBay in late 2005. It was identified as Polish by the seller, but he isn't the best at correctly identifying swords (last December, he sold an Afghan shashka which he incorrectly attributed to Russia. Ariel posted a thread about it.), so there is a definite possibility that it may be Hungarian, or Georgian. Here's a link to his eBay store if you were interested: http://stores.ebay.com/Eclectic-Muse...QQftidZ2QQtZkm The second is from: http://www.hessink.nl/ It is item number 1428 in their current catalogue. The third was really just a lark, showing that even though it only bore a slight resemblence to the genuine article, this is the image of the "scimitar" that has remained in popular culture, even to today! And I agree, it does bear a resemblence to the Chinese dadao of the 1800's and early 1900's, but I think we're probably drawing an imaginary line of relation. And yes, I noted the unusual guard and handle. Quite an amalgamation, this piece! But then, I have seen one similar Indian piece.... but besides that, I have no idea if the piece is part of a collection, but it probably is. It passed through the market sometime in the middle of last year, I think. My, I wrote quite a bit, didn't I? Sorry, if I misspelled anything. For those impetuous people who read my posts only for the pics I always include, here's the part where you pay attention. Starting at the top... 1: Various sabers and falchions, most from the 16th century. 2: Sword of Sultan Bayezid II. 3: Sword of Mehmed II. 4: Mamluk sword, early 15th century. 5: Mamluk sword, 15th century. 6: Various old kilics. 7: Saber owned by Charlemagne. 8: Bulgarian sabers, pre-7th century. 9: The REAL oldest single-edged sword with a dorsal ridge. 10: A dussack, to show what these things evolved into. 11: Why not, an Indian "scimitar." http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...laceswords.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...1/bayezid1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...hmedkilij1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...nesskilij1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...d-15th_C_1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...csandsaifs.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...abermatrix.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...abi-yotov_.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...21/khopesh.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...venkasbook.jpg Attached Images