Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Indian Crucible Steel vs. Pattern Welding

Jens Nordlunde · 25th October 2015, 04:00 PM

estcrh,
When you quote someone, I think it would only be fair to the author and the reader, if you give the source.

Emanuel,
I think I have found something of interest, although it does not have anything to do with the names.
James Allan and Brian Gilmour: Persian Steel. The Tanavoli Collection. Oxford University Press, 2000. The quotes are written by Brian Gilmour.
A spearhead from the 5th century BC was excavated at Deva Huyuk, Syria, and the blade was made from different layers of iron of different quality.
Page 43. "When part of this spearhead was mounted, polished and etched, it revealed the relief-map effect of a layered structure which has been both distorted by forging and partially ground away at a slight angle.
Structures like this have the potential to produce a decorative, patterned effect, given suitable grinding, polishing and etching of the surface, and it seems not unreasonable to suggest that this might be a very early example of a pattern-welded structure."

Page 77. The patterns on the blades of such weapons, at least of those from the 5th-11th centuries, derive from combinations of different iron alloys welded together, whereas the pattern of watered blades made from Eastern crusible steel, in particular wootz, derive from a dispersion of cementite particles in a ultra high-carbon steel. The two types of pattern are sufficiently different to suggest that the technologies that made them developed and were practised quite seperately for the most part (pattern-welded sword construction is known in the area of Malaysia which was also the probable source of the fulad swords of Qal'ah mentioned by al-Kindi), although the appearance and supposed qualities of Western pattern-welded swords may have had some influence on the types of pattern produced by Eastern steelsmiths."

I just thought of something. It is fantastichen reading the text above to realise, that when we have a pattern welded sword in out hands, from maybe the 15th century this technique had been used for about a thousand years - improved all the time no doubt. Somewhere I read, that when making pattern welded blades all sort of iron was used, like old horse shooes, nails and whatever iron they could lay their hands on. This would of course give a blade with a very different carbon content.

25th October 2015, 04:00 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	estcrh, When you quote someone, I think it would only be fair to the author and the reader, if you give the source. Emanuel, I think I have found something of interest, although it does not have anything to do with the names. James Allan and Brian Gilmour: Persian Steel. The Tanavoli Collection. Oxford University Press, 2000. The quotes are written by Brian Gilmour. A spearhead from the 5th century BC was excavated at Deva Huyuk, Syria, and the blade was made from different layers of iron of different quality. Page 43. "When part of this spearhead was mounted, polished and etched, it revealed the relief-map effect of a layered structure which has been both distorted by forging and partially ground away at a slight angle. Structures like this have the potential to produce a decorative, patterned effect, given suitable grinding, polishing and etching of the surface, and it seems not unreasonable to suggest that this might be a very early example of a pattern-welded structure." Page 77. The patterns on the blades of such weapons, at least of those from the 5th-11th centuries, derive from combinations of different iron alloys welded together, whereas the pattern of watered blades made from Eastern crusible steel, in particular wootz, derive from a dispersion of cementite particles in a ultra high-carbon steel. The two types of pattern are sufficiently different to suggest that the technologies that made them developed and were practised quite seperately for the most part (pattern-welded sword construction is known in the area of Malaysia which was also the probable source of the fulad swords of Qal'ah mentioned by al-Kindi), although the appearance and supposed qualities of Western pattern-welded swords may have had some influence on the types of pattern produced by Eastern steelsmiths." I just thought of something. It is fantastichen reading the text above to realise, that when we have a pattern welded sword in out hands, from maybe the 15th century this technique had been used for about a thousand years - improved all the time no doubt. Somewhere I read, that when making pattern welded blades all sort of iron was used, like old horse shooes, nails and whatever iron they could lay their hands on. This would of course give a blade with a very different carbon content. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 25th October 2015 at 09:55 PM.