[David]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

David, thanks. I agree with you that the subject matter has much more to do than the shape of the tang. And with regard to the 'invalidation' thing I mentioned, I was definitely not referring to the Indonesian keris' influence on the development of the Moro kris.

What was invalidated to my mind via what I presented, is the theory that the 'smoking gun' insofar as the inferred transition from a Javanese keris to a Moro kris must have been a Moro kris with a round tang.

That can't be, because as we've seen our square or rectangular tang came about centuries even before our kris was born.

I also agree with you on the Javanese influence on the development of what eventually became the Moro kris (and earlier, on the Javanese influence on the development of the Luzon, Visayan, and Mindanao-Sulu kalises).

I'm now reading a nice book on numbers and units in Old Tagalog by Dr. Jean-Paul Potet. And in there (see excerpts below), the very close ties between our islands and Java was mentioned several times. We can also see that he also mentioned that there was a period where our forefathers were using Javanese currency, given the far-reaching influence of the Javanese economy. Thus, we can surmise from all these that there must have been a tremendous amount of cross-fertilization going on within our region (which region eventually became Malaysia, Indonesia, and Philippines).

And so I think we should always remember that it was and will always be a two-way street.

When I had the opportunity to interview the weapons expert of Museo del Ejercito in Toledo, Spain in 2010 (and our subject was antique Phil. blades), he suggested to me that one important area of study is the influence of Filipino sword design on Spanish blades. Because precisely he is emphasizing that the influence of one region to another will always be reciprocal.

Thus in my humble opinion the proper perspective is to think in grayscale and not in black and white. Or put another way, the approach is to think in percentages, rather than all or nothing.

To put it more concretely and by way of an example, I think the Moro kris' origin is 70% local (with the Visayan kalis, as my personal proof, which kalis form must have also existed in Luzon and in Mindanao-Sulu, and perhaps even before the advent of Islam in our islands) and 30% Javanese.

I suppose the alternative view is to think that it's lopsided the other way around -- e.g., the Moro kris' origin is 90% Javanese and only 10% local.

I don't have any problem with the two views above, hypothetically. My only issue is for anybody to claim that the influence on the any design is 100% local, or 100% Javanese, or 100% whatever

Next, I'll present some more info why I believe that the influence on the development of the Moro kris' design must have been predominantly homegrown.

Again, interesting information on coins, but i can't help but remark that this seems like an apples vs. oranges argument and i don't really see the connection you are attempting to make with the coins. Firstly the Mojophahit Empire was indeed the dominate force in that area at the time and parts of what are now considered the Philippines were vassal states of that empire. So it is no surprise that Mojopahit currency can be found there. However it must also be considered that when currency is made of gold and silver it hardly matters what government has stamped it's mark upon it. It retains value by it's weight regardless.
I do look forward to the evidence you will soon be presenting that will show why you believe the Moro kris is predominately homegrown. Given that early ("archaic") Moro kris seem to incorporate all the exact same minute details of design that we find on the Javanese keris (gandik, gonjo, sogokan, blumbangan, kembang kacang, greneng w/ rondha, lambe-gajah, etc.) and that none of these features are visible on any of the examples of these ancient kalis that you have posted i have a very difficult time accepting the Moro kris as 70% homegrown as you have suggested. What does seem homegrown is the development of this uniquely Javanese design from a stabbing dagger into a slashing sword, which certainly makes the Moro variety of kris/keris a different beast, a one to be seriously reckoned with. In order to effectively do this the change from a round tang to a rectangular one seems a necessity for the effectiveness of the weapon. Such shaped tangs were not a mystery to the Javanese either. They just were just not a necessity for the stabbing function of the keris.
Alan will be able to answer the question you posed to him better than i, but it is my understanding that the features you are questioning about are at least as old as the Mojopahit Empire when all this contact between Jawa and the southern Philippines was taking place. I have attached a map of the Mojopahit Empire for some context. Certainly when you have contact between peoples their is an exchange of ideas. However, one must also keep in mind which was the dominate culture at the time. Vassal states tended to adopt the styles and directions of the keraton in power.