Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Ian · 20th August 2018, 01:36 AM

Ariel,

It seems that Mr Peabody is away from his desk and the WayBackMachine is not accepting certain links, so I have posted replies to the original Siberia Sword thread here. These discussions date to the late 1990s and were among the earliest on these forums. At the time folks had to email their questions and comments to Lee, who would then post them online. We've come a long way since then.

It's good to see the Archives are still relevant, and perhaps Jim and Rich will have something further to add ...

Ian

------------Posted by Oleg Kirsanov (via Lee Jones) on April 13, 1999 at 22:30:14:-------------

Dear colleagues

In this message I can inform you the shape, size & basic components of this saber:

-the length of the blade is 720 mm
-the length of the hilt is 75 mm
-the thickness of the middle part of the blade is 5,5 mm
-the widths of the middle part of the blade is 29,4 mm
-the length of the cross-section is 105 mm
-the widths of the cross-section in the middle part is 8,2 mm.

The shape of the cross-section is ellipse, very sharp & refined.
The blade of the sabre is rhombic shape & single-edged the side of the brand.

The curving of the blade is minimum - 4 mm from the straight line.
The whole shape of the blade, cross-section & the hilt let us refer this sword as a sabre.

The condition of this 1000 years saber is perfect, the structure & the property survived completely.

The steel is one of the shapes ( kinds ) of Damask steel.
In middle ages in South Siberian there was a high level technology of output & treatment of iron, excelling Chine & the other civilizations.

The sabre is at my disposal now but it may be sold. That's why I want to finish this scientific investigation of the saber & ask you for saving time contact me in E-mail. The origin and the age of the saber are being exactly established. The difficulty which we have faced concerns the brand on the saber. Is it an ornament used as a decorative pattern those days, or it has some shades of logical meaning?

That is the reason why we decided to consult the specialist and owners of medieval weapon collections.

Best regards,

Oleg Kirsanov, the collector.

More PHOTOS and previous discussion

--------------Reply by Jim McDougall----------------

Mr. Kirsanov,

What a beautiful example of what appears to be an
early Altaic sabre, judging by examples shown in
drawings in books by David Nicolle Phd,. notably
The Mongol Warlords 1990, and Attila and the Nomad
Hordes, Osprey 1990, and examples shown are
similar noted as Turkish 6-10th century and others
as Khirghiz 10-12th c.

These suggest provenance from Sibero-Mongol borders
where nomad tribes belonged to all three
branches of the Altaic group Turkic,Mongol and
Tungusic.

Although I cannot make out clearly what appears to
be a triangular geometric motif at the forte
if it is at the cutting edge, it is likely a choil
or terminus of the sharpened edge.If it at the back
of the blade of course it is a backpiece as
is seen on many of these as a support piece.
The triangle is of course an ancient symbol which
usually represents fire as well as power, divinity,
etc, etc. As these nomads were typically Shamanistic
such symbolisation may have simply been adopted to
sanctify the blade.

Trying to be definitive on identifying this sword
accurately with the complexities of the vast area
and movements of these nomads is difficult but can
be done with some work.In a communication with
David Nicolle, he suggested Dr.Michael Gorelik of
I believe Kiev. I will check for an address on him.
I know I have it. He is an expert Oriental Arms and
Armour including Central Asian and early
weapons of the steppes.

If you would please contact me directly at my E mail
and we can discuss further research and getting
valuation established. I will start putting
together contacts if you are agreeable.

I would like to know more about provenance on this
sword if possible as well.

Looking forward very much to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Jim McDougall

----------------Comment by Rich----------------

This is a wonderful looking blade; however, I
don't recall ever seeing a tang notched like
that in any of Oakshott's books or any other -
of course memory fails (more and more

.
I used the notches when I made knives to get
better glue adherence in the hilt. Also, the
tang strikes me as very, very short for a blade
of this length. Something strikes me that it
would not be a particularly strong hilt mount
especially for slashing type cuts. Just my
$0.02 worth. Rich

-----------Additional images from owner------------
.

20th August 2018, 01:36 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Ariel, It seems that Mr Peabody is away from his desk and the WayBackMachine is not accepting certain links, so I have posted replies to the original Siberia Sword thread here. These discussions date to the late 1990s and were among the earliest on these forums. At the time folks had to email their questions and comments to Lee, who would then post them online. We've come a long way since then. It's good to see the Archives are still relevant, and perhaps Jim and Rich will have something further to add ... Ian ------------Posted by Oleg Kirsanov (via Lee Jones) on April 13, 1999 at 22:30:14:------------- Dear colleagues In this message I can inform you the shape, size & basic components of this saber: -the length of the blade is 720 mm -the length of the hilt is 75 mm -the thickness of the middle part of the blade is 5,5 mm -the widths of the middle part of the blade is 29,4 mm -the length of the cross-section is 105 mm -the widths of the cross-section in the middle part is 8,2 mm. The shape of the cross-section is ellipse, very sharp & refined. The blade of the sabre is rhombic shape & single-edged the side of the brand. The curving of the blade is minimum - 4 mm from the straight line. The whole shape of the blade, cross-section & the hilt let us refer this sword as a sabre. The condition of this 1000 years saber is perfect, the structure & the property survived completely. The steel is one of the shapes ( kinds ) of Damask steel. In middle ages in South Siberian there was a high level technology of output & treatment of iron, excelling Chine & the other civilizations. The sabre is at my disposal now but it may be sold. That's why I want to finish this scientific investigation of the saber & ask you for saving time contact me in E-mail. The origin and the age of the saber are being exactly established. The difficulty which we have faced concerns the brand on the saber. Is it an ornament used as a decorative pattern those days, or it has some shades of logical meaning? That is the reason why we decided to consult the specialist and owners of medieval weapon collections. Best regards, Oleg Kirsanov, the collector. More PHOTOS and previous discussion --------------Reply by Jim McDougall---------------- Mr. Kirsanov, What a beautiful example of what appears to be an early Altaic sabre, judging by examples shown in drawings in books by David Nicolle Phd,. notably The Mongol Warlords 1990, and Attila and the Nomad Hordes, Osprey 1990, and examples shown are similar noted as Turkish 6-10th century and others as Khirghiz 10-12th c. These suggest provenance from Sibero-Mongol borders where nomad tribes belonged to all three branches of the Altaic group Turkic,Mongol and Tungusic. Although I cannot make out clearly what appears to be a triangular geometric motif at the forte if it is at the cutting edge, it is likely a choil or terminus of the sharpened edge.If it at the back of the blade of course it is a backpiece as is seen on many of these as a support piece. The triangle is of course an ancient symbol which usually represents fire as well as power, divinity, etc, etc. As these nomads were typically Shamanistic such symbolisation may have simply been adopted to sanctify the blade. Trying to be definitive on identifying this sword accurately with the complexities of the vast area and movements of these nomads is difficult but can be done with some work.In a communication with David Nicolle, he suggested Dr.Michael Gorelik of I believe Kiev. I will check for an address on him. I know I have it. He is an expert Oriental Arms and Armour including Central Asian and early weapons of the steppes. If you would please contact me directly at my E mail and we can discuss further research and getting valuation established. I will start putting together contacts if you are agreeable. I would like to know more about provenance on this sword if possible as well. Looking forward very much to hearing from you. Sincerely, Jim McDougall ----------------Comment by Rich---------------- This is a wonderful looking blade; however, I don't recall ever seeing a tang notched like that in any of Oakshott's books or any other - of course memory fails (more and more . I used the notches when I made knives to get better glue adherence in the hilt. Also, the tang strikes me as very, very short for a blade of this length. Something strikes me that it would not be a particularly strong hilt mount especially for slashing type cuts. Just my $0.02 worth. Rich -----------Additional images from owner------------ . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 20th August 2018 at 01:54 AM.