Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 11:53 AM

Old 20th October 2009, 11:24 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi guys, thank you all
In face of so many coments, i decided to take off my cuff links and do a bit research myself, trying to instantly catch pace with those, like you, whom gathered a lot of luggage in this subject through long time.
I will in any case continue researching and try and join as most material as i can on this item, as i usually do.
Concerning Norman's sugestion about the crucifix; considering he is right ... or half way to it. We can even go as far as imagining that this mark is a composition made with the smith punction and the client's symbol. But i am not personaly inclined to it, until further evidence ... or until we find this mark in some book or picture.
I went into the unusual (for me) adventure of dismounting the guard; fortunately the pommel is the screw type. Now the mark is as clear as possible. A real chalenge; besides the classic christ in a crucified position, as may be seen in Pedro Hernandez mark, there is a peripherical double beam cross, upon a sort of calvary and with an aureole on the top.
I wonder whether this is a Patriarchal or a Lorena Cross, or a 'modified' setup created by the smith.
I couldn't yet confirm if and what inscriptions Pedro Hernandez and other eventual crucifix mark smiths used to inscribe in their blades, but suddenly i realized that the phrase MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO is not an abstract allusion but an objective one, that is, the signal (sign) they refer is the mark they punction on the blade recazo: the crucifix.
I don't think i assimilate the sugestion that this sword is Caribbean ... or Spanish colonial, or the like; much less a rapier .
I am totally convinced that this sword is Peninsular; either Spanish or Portuguese ... or both; like a XVII century Spanish blade with a XVIII century Portuguese hilt ... for instance .
I have just checked the digital copy of a catalogue published to cover the Ornamental Art Exhibition held in the Lisbon Academy of Fine Arts in 1882. There were four swords with the inscription MIN SINAL HES ... all (syntomaticaly) with the same spelling, and all dated by the catalogue author as being from the XVII century. And, two amazing things: one of them was a schiavona sword and another, a cup hilted one, had the marks of famous Alonso Sahagun on the blade forte.
Except for the schiavona, the other three were quoted to have a crucifix on both sides of the recazo.
I agree with Manolo that the blade shape of 'bulk' cup hilt battle swords was the dos mesas (two convex faces cross-section); i have one myself and also find one pictured and described in a book i have. But i guess this doesn't eliminate other shapes, does it? I eventually have a similarly fullered specimen in the same book, precisely with the MIN SINAL HES motto ... and in the same lettering as my example; and also dated XVII century, although i can't guarantee the author's rigour; it belongs to his own collection.
... And, Manolo, i don't think the blade is too heavy for the pommel size . Remember the blade is fullered and of short length; the point of balance is 8 cms away from the guard. What do you think?
Concerning the dimension of the rumpe puntas (quebra pontas) Jim, i see plenty like this one, as still being within the 'norm'; but here between us two, i think such implement was more on the fantasy side, rather than an operational device .
My best wishes to everyone ... and thanks a lot for your participation.
Fernando

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19th October 2017, 11:53 AM	#165
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Old 20th October 2009, 11:24 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi guys, thank you all In face of so many coments, i decided to take off my cuff links and do a bit research myself, trying to instantly catch pace with those, like you, whom gathered a lot of luggage in this subject through long time. I will in any case continue researching and try and join as most material as i can on this item, as i usually do. Concerning Norman's sugestion about the crucifix; considering he is right ... or half way to it. We can even go as far as imagining that this mark is a composition made with the smith punction and the client's symbol. But i am not personaly inclined to it, until further evidence ... or until we find this mark in some book or picture. I went into the unusual (for me) adventure of dismounting the guard; fortunately the pommel is the screw type. Now the mark is as clear as possible. A real chalenge; besides the classic christ in a crucified position, as may be seen in Pedro Hernandez mark, there is a peripherical double beam cross, upon a sort of calvary and with an aureole on the top. I wonder whether this is a Patriarchal or a Lorena Cross, or a 'modified' setup created by the smith. I couldn't yet confirm if and what inscriptions Pedro Hernandez and other eventual crucifix mark smiths used to inscribe in their blades, but suddenly i realized that the phrase MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO is not an abstract allusion but an objective one, that is, the signal (sign) they refer is the mark they punction on the blade recazo: the crucifix. I don't think i assimilate the sugestion that this sword is Caribbean ... or Spanish colonial, or the like; much less a rapier . I am totally convinced that this sword is Peninsular; either Spanish or Portuguese ... or both; like a XVII century Spanish blade with a XVIII century Portuguese hilt ... for instance . I have just checked the digital copy of a catalogue published to cover the Ornamental Art Exhibition held in the Lisbon Academy of Fine Arts in 1882. There were four swords with the inscription MIN SINAL HES ... all (syntomaticaly) with the same spelling, and all dated by the catalogue author as being from the XVII century. And, two amazing things: one of them was a schiavona sword and another, a cup hilted one, had the marks of famous Alonso Sahagun on the blade forte. Except for the schiavona, the other three were quoted to have a crucifix on both sides of the recazo. I agree with Manolo that the blade shape of 'bulk' cup hilt battle swords was the dos mesas (two convex faces cross-section); i have one myself and also find one pictured and described in a book i have. But i guess this doesn't eliminate other shapes, does it? I eventually have a similarly fullered specimen in the same book, precisely with the MIN SINAL HES motto ... and in the same lettering as my example; and also dated XVII century, although i can't guarantee the author's rigour; it belongs to his own collection. ... And, Manolo, i don't think the blade is too heavy for the pommel size . Remember the blade is fullered and of short length; the point of balance is 8 cms away from the guard. What do you think? Concerning the dimension of the rumpe puntas (quebra pontas) Jim, i see plenty like this one, as still being within the 'norm'; but here between us two, i think such implement was more on the fantasy side, rather than an operational device . My best wishes to everyone ... and thanks a lot for your participation. Fernando (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:19 PM.