Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2006, 07:22 AM

As to exactly when a normal keris that was gonjo iras first appeared, all I can say is that I have never seen a really old one.

16th century?

yeah, maybe---also maybe not.

Further, we seldom see gonjo iras blades from Jawa.South Sumatera, Peninsula---other places,yeah, but I cannot recall ever having seen many from Jawa itself.

Cost cutting would be a reasonable, pragmatic explanation, and looked at logically, completely defensible.

However---I could construct a very elegant esoteric reason for the construction of the gonjo iras blade.Only problem with that is, it would be my construct using 20th century Javanese philosophical arguments. I do not know of anything in any literature older than probably the last quarter of the 19th century that I could call on to support my esoteric construct.

The simple fact of the matter is this:-

making up a story to explain anything is very easy;

believing things that make one feel comfortable is also very easy;

inventing reasons that are in accord with one's personal beliefs, or what one wants to believe others have believed in the past is very easy;

what is not at all easy is to find hard evidence, or to build a logical argument based on indirect evidence, that will give strong support to a position.

If for argument's sake,sufficient people hold the belief that the gonjo iras form was specifically designed to represent a perfect union of the male and the female, and thus has the tuah of strengthening a marriage, which in turn strengthens the community, and leads to both worldly and spiritual wealth, then, for those people who believe this, this is something true and real.Because these people believe this, it will likely have the designated effect for these people.

However--- if we set out to try to find evidence that this was indeed the reason behind the construction of the first examples of this form, we might have a very, very difficult job in front of us.

Never lose sight of the fact that as well as being a royal work of art, a symbol of power, a mystical icon, the keris was also an item of trade that was traded all over SE Asia.

Not all men are equal : not all keris are equal.

What I am saying here is that anybody can believe whatever they wish to believe. That is an individual's right. But if we want evidential proof, or we want a supportive logical argument for that belief---well, that's an entirely different basket of fruit.

20th November 2006, 07:22 AM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	As to exactly when a normal keris that was gonjo iras first appeared, all I can say is that I have never seen a really old one. 16th century? yeah, maybe---also maybe not. Further, we seldom see gonjo iras blades from Jawa.South Sumatera, Peninsula---other places,yeah, but I cannot recall ever having seen many from Jawa itself. Cost cutting would be a reasonable, pragmatic explanation, and looked at logically, completely defensible. However---I could construct a very elegant esoteric reason for the construction of the gonjo iras blade.Only problem with that is, it would be my construct using 20th century Javanese philosophical arguments. I do not know of anything in any literature older than probably the last quarter of the 19th century that I could call on to support my esoteric construct. The simple fact of the matter is this:- making up a story to explain anything is very easy; believing things that make one feel comfortable is also very easy; inventing reasons that are in accord with one's personal beliefs, or what one wants to believe others have believed in the past is very easy; what is not at all easy is to find hard evidence, or to build a logical argument based on indirect evidence, that will give strong support to a position. If for argument's sake,sufficient people hold the belief that the gonjo iras form was specifically designed to represent a perfect union of the male and the female, and thus has the tuah of strengthening a marriage, which in turn strengthens the community, and leads to both worldly and spiritual wealth, then, for those people who believe this, this is something true and real.Because these people believe this, it will likely have the designated effect for these people. However--- if we set out to try to find evidence that this was indeed the reason behind the construction of the first examples of this form, we might have a very, very difficult job in front of us. Never lose sight of the fact that as well as being a royal work of art, a symbol of power, a mystical icon, the keris was also an item of trade that was traded all over SE Asia. Not all men are equal : not all keris are equal. What I am saying here is that anybody can believe whatever they wish to believe. That is an individual's right. But if we want evidential proof, or we want a supportive logical argument for that belief---well, that's an entirely different basket of fruit.