Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2010, 09:41 PM

Hi Larry,
First of all welcome to the forum! and my praise and admiration for your declaration in wanting to keep this family treasure. I hope you will be reading this, as what you have there is indeed a treasure of sorts, and it would be great to learn more of where you dad was in WWII, as this sword has far more history to it than would commonly be thought.

Obviously at first glance, and with the fishskin grip and scroll type hilt, the immediate impression is of the relatively common, as noted, British heavy cavalry swords of 1887, frankly I was inclined to agree initially. However, some things set me off especially that curious stylized eagle at the base of the guard on the hilt. This is entirely atypical of the British hilt marks I have seen, which usually consist of number and letter issuance stamps.

Second, the parallel slots just forward of the scrolled quillon are something not seen in any of these British hilts, these were for sabre knots and were however seen on some European military swords, especially Imperial German.
Which brings me to the quillon scroll, which is furrowed rather than smooth as seen on the British examples.

Also, most British swords of this time were proofed, most commonly with the Star of Solomon device which enclosed either maker or vendor stamps.
This simply has a name stamp.

I checked in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Wagner, Prague, 1967) on p.241, #26, this very hilt is shown as a Hessian officers sabre, as used by the 115th-118th regiments officers for the Grand Duke of Hesse, Ernest Louis Charles Albert William (1868-1937). He was the grandson of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, which somewhat explains the British influence here as well as close diplomatic ties with the House of Saxe-Coburg pre-WWI.

The Duke served in WWI, and these four infantry regiments were part of the 18th Army Corps, listed as the 1st through 4th Grand Ducal Hessian Bodyguard Infantry
According to Wagner (op.cit.p.241) these hilts were typically gilt, so it would be interesting to see if traces remain. The officers of the 115th were permitted to have thier hilts stamped (in this position) with a coronet and the Dukes initials. It would seem that the eagle was to one of the other three units, and if I am not mistaken, there is a H near the eagle.

The Duke ruled as the Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine from 1892-1918, which ended if course with WWI. I would say this places the date of this sword nicely within those years, and would explain that it was likely a trophy acquired during WWII. It is of course difficult to determine further the disposition, but I would say this is a rather rare and desirable sword from one of these elite units.

A truly fascinating sword, and I hope this information will be helpful in not only enjoying this heirloom, but pride in remembering your dad.

All the very best,
Jim

15th September 2010, 09:41 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Larry, First of all welcome to the forum! and my praise and admiration for your declaration in wanting to keep this family treasure. I hope you will be reading this, as what you have there is indeed a treasure of sorts, and it would be great to learn more of where you dad was in WWII, as this sword has far more history to it than would commonly be thought. Obviously at first glance, and with the fishskin grip and scroll type hilt, the immediate impression is of the relatively common, as noted, British heavy cavalry swords of 1887, frankly I was inclined to agree initially. However, some things set me off especially that curious stylized eagle at the base of the guard on the hilt. This is entirely atypical of the British hilt marks I have seen, which usually consist of number and letter issuance stamps. Second, the parallel slots just forward of the scrolled quillon are something not seen in any of these British hilts, these were for sabre knots and were however seen on some European military swords, especially Imperial German. Which brings me to the quillon scroll, which is furrowed rather than smooth as seen on the British examples. Also, most British swords of this time were proofed, most commonly with the Star of Solomon device which enclosed either maker or vendor stamps. This simply has a name stamp. I checked in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Wagner, Prague, 1967) on p.241, #26, this very hilt is shown as a Hessian officers sabre, as used by the 115th-118th regiments officers for the Grand Duke of Hesse, Ernest Louis Charles Albert William (1868-1937). He was the grandson of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, which somewhat explains the British influence here as well as close diplomatic ties with the House of Saxe-Coburg pre-WWI. The Duke served in WWI, and these four infantry regiments were part of the 18th Army Corps, listed as the 1st through 4th Grand Ducal Hessian Bodyguard Infantry According to Wagner (op.cit.p.241) these hilts were typically gilt, so it would be interesting to see if traces remain. The officers of the 115th were permitted to have thier hilts stamped (in this position) with a coronet and the Dukes initials. It would seem that the eagle was to one of the other three units, and if I am not mistaken, there is a H near the eagle. The Duke ruled as the Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine from 1892-1918, which ended if course with WWI. I would say this places the date of this sword nicely within those years, and would explain that it was likely a trophy acquired during WWII. It is of course difficult to determine further the disposition, but I would say this is a rather rare and desirable sword from one of these elite units. A truly fascinating sword, and I hope this information will be helpful in not only enjoying this heirloom, but pride in remembering your dad. All the very best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th September 2010 at 09:57 PM.