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A. G. Maisey · 22nd August 2018, 02:30 PM

Ariel, I choose to believe that you have moved your discussion in this present direction because of the socio-cultural influences that you yourself have been subjected to. The message that I understand from your post #8 is that in your opinion there is no longer any distinction between the multitude of societies and cultures that are spread across the world. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood the point that you are trying to make, but this is how I interpret your words.

You speak of the 'pre-industrial era', 'proper education' and so on as if these are universally available to every person on the face of this planet.

You're surely not serious, are you?

I know you to be a highly intelligent and an accomplished man, it is beyond my understanding of how a man of your intelligence and ability could form such an opinion --- if indeed this is your opinion, and I hope that you will correct me if I have misunderstood your words.

I would very gently suggest that even in societies that share a common, or related cultural foundation, there are sociocultural differences and variations that cause multi-national organisations to indulge in very diligent investigation and analysis of a target society prior to commencing operations in that society. Multi-nationals are not known to waste money on research unless they can support a very good reason for it. Even so, it seems that when some multi-nationals move into Australia from an American, or European base, they still manage to get things wrong --- and I am certain that they have similar experiences as they try to adapt to business methods and consumer culture when they move into countries other than the one they have come from.

I began this thread because I thought it might comfort a few of the dedicated students of the keris who are regular watchers and contributors, but who are still not able to come to terms with even the most basic of Javanese thought patterns in respect of the keris. The reason that they are unable to achieve these basic understandings is quite simply because they are not Javanese, they cannot understand the way in which Javanese people process information, thus they see the world around them, and of course the keris, in a different way to the way in which a Javanese person might see both the world, and the keris.

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with one frame of perception being better than another, but it does have everything to do with one frame of perception being different to another.

I consider myself fortunate in that I have had a close association with Chinese people from the age of 8, and that I have spent roughly one quarter of my life in Indonesia for the last forty-odd years. If I have learnt anything at all from this, it is that not all people from all societies perceive matters in the same way.

Here is a quote from a conversation with Noor Huda Ismail, Noor is a recognised authority on Islamic extremism in Indonesia, for a time he worked as a correspondent for the Washington Post. The discussion was about the way that Western countries see Indonesia as a buffer state that can be used to ameliorate the expansion of India & China:-

"--- our leaders are now intertwined with Western interests. They see the Western system as their role model that could help them to restore the country (ie, Indonesia). We are Asians and we have very different ways of thinking and solving problems. If our leaders continue to play this game --- defending the interests of the West in this part of the world --- they will be selling their souls and our souls to the devil."

You see Ariel, Asians recognise that the way in which they see and understand something is not necessarily the same as the way in which a highly intelligent person from a Western society might see & understand the same thing, even if those Asians themselves are also highly intelligent.

22nd August 2018, 02:30 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Ariel, I choose to believe that you have moved your discussion in this present direction because of the socio-cultural influences that you yourself have been subjected to. The message that I understand from your post #8 is that in your opinion there is no longer any distinction between the multitude of societies and cultures that are spread across the world. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood the point that you are trying to make, but this is how I interpret your words. You speak of the 'pre-industrial era', 'proper education' and so on as if these are universally available to every person on the face of this planet. You're surely not serious, are you? I know you to be a highly intelligent and an accomplished man, it is beyond my understanding of how a man of your intelligence and ability could form such an opinion --- if indeed this is your opinion, and I hope that you will correct me if I have misunderstood your words. I would very gently suggest that even in societies that share a common, or related cultural foundation, there are sociocultural differences and variations that cause multi-national organisations to indulge in very diligent investigation and analysis of a target society prior to commencing operations in that society. Multi-nationals are not known to waste money on research unless they can support a very good reason for it. Even so, it seems that when some multi-nationals move into Australia from an American, or European base, they still manage to get things wrong --- and I am certain that they have similar experiences as they try to adapt to business methods and consumer culture when they move into countries other than the one they have come from. I began this thread because I thought it might comfort a few of the dedicated students of the keris who are regular watchers and contributors, but who are still not able to come to terms with even the most basic of Javanese thought patterns in respect of the keris. The reason that they are unable to achieve these basic understandings is quite simply because they are not Javanese, they cannot understand the way in which Javanese people process information, thus they see the world around them, and of course the keris, in a different way to the way in which a Javanese person might see both the world, and the keris. This has absolutely nothing at all to do with one frame of perception being better than another, but it does have everything to do with one frame of perception being different to another. I consider myself fortunate in that I have had a close association with Chinese people from the age of 8, and that I have spent roughly one quarter of my life in Indonesia for the last forty-odd years. If I have learnt anything at all from this, it is that not all people from all societies perceive matters in the same way. Here is a quote from a conversation with Noor Huda Ismail, Noor is a recognised authority on Islamic extremism in Indonesia, for a time he worked as a correspondent for the Washington Post. The discussion was about the way that Western countries see Indonesia as a buffer state that can be used to ameliorate the expansion of India & China:- "--- our leaders are now intertwined with Western interests. They see the Western system as their role model that could help them to restore the country (ie, Indonesia). We are Asians and we have very different ways of thinking and solving problems. If our leaders continue to play this game --- defending the interests of the West in this part of the world --- they will be selling their souls and our souls to the devil." You see Ariel, Asians recognise that the way in which they see and understand something is not necessarily the same as the way in which a highly intelligent person from a Western society might see & understand the same thing, even if those Asians themselves are also highly intelligent.