Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jeff D · 25th December 2007, 08:55 PM

Great idea Ariel, and thanks Teodor for letting us divert your thread.

The "big book" is a good accumulation of information on shamshirs and brings to light many example that would not have been seen in the west. Unfortunately the book was original intended for the Cultural Heritage Instutution of Iran and is therefore very pro aryan (at times may have made even Leni Riefenstahl blush). The text has to be veiwed in this context.
The origins of the karabela style hilt has been postulated as Polish, Persian and European. Oliver Pinchot discusses it briefly in his article The Persian Shamshir and the signature of Assad Allah Below is a copy of portraits of Shaw Abbas, Shah Safi and Shaw Abbas II with what appears to be Karabela style shamshirs. These portrates are circa 1633. He reiterates the theory that Sha Abbas may have encountered this style of hilt during the reconquering of Karbala in 1623.
The possibility of it reaching Poland from Persia (although not specifically stated) may have began with trade missions started in 1601.
Oliver goes on to quote Ostrowski and Bochnak in Note 16 that the hilt style did not appear in Poland until after the Relief of the seige of Vienna in 1683.
Elgood on Pg 15 ofThe Arms and Armour of Arabia Supports the idea that the political ties between Poland and Persia, united to fend of the Ottomans, may have been the source of this hilt style.
Nadolski in Polish Arms-Side Arms on Pg 36 also suggests the Karbala origin.
Yet by the Seige of Vienna in 1683 completely mature forms of the Karabella style hilted saber are seen illustrated below from Fig 150 Odsiecz Wiedenska 1683 . This saber was used in the campaign and has a clearly Ottoman blade (mountings?), suggesting a Ottoman captured piece.
I think at this time the concensus is a Persian origin for the style, but, an Ottoman origin seems to me very possible. I will see if i can find more.

All the best
Jeff

25th December 2007, 08:55 PM	#14
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Great idea Ariel, and thanks Teodor for letting us divert your thread. The "big book" is a good accumulation of information on shamshirs and brings to light many example that would not have been seen in the west. Unfortunately the book was original intended for the Cultural Heritage Instutution of Iran and is therefore very pro aryan (at times may have made even Leni Riefenstahl blush). The text has to be veiwed in this context. The origins of the karabela style hilt has been postulated as Polish, Persian and European. Oliver Pinchot discusses it briefly in his article The Persian Shamshir and the signature of Assad Allah Below is a copy of portraits of Shaw Abbas, Shah Safi and Shaw Abbas II with what appears to be Karabela style shamshirs. These portrates are circa 1633. He reiterates the theory that Sha Abbas may have encountered this style of hilt during the reconquering of Karbala in 1623. The possibility of it reaching Poland from Persia (although not specifically stated) may have began with trade missions started in 1601. Oliver goes on to quote Ostrowski and Bochnak in Note 16 that the hilt style did not appear in Poland until after the Relief of the seige of Vienna in 1683. Elgood on Pg 15 ofThe Arms and Armour of Arabia Supports the idea that the political ties between Poland and Persia, united to fend of the Ottomans, may have been the source of this hilt style. Nadolski in Polish Arms-Side Arms on Pg 36 also suggests the Karbala origin. Yet by the Seige of Vienna in 1683 completely mature forms of the Karabella style hilted saber are seen illustrated below from Fig 150 Odsiecz Wiedenska 1683 . This saber was used in the campaign and has a clearly Ottoman blade (mountings?), suggesting a Ottoman captured piece. I think at this time the concensus is a Persian origin for the style, but, an Ottoman origin seems to me very possible. I will see if i can find more. All the best Jeff Attached Images