Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2016, 05:16 PM

While I cannot add much to the connoisseur's discussion on wines (most wine I ever drink is from a box

)....I can clarify that my note on corrections was toward the fact that I often correct myself as new findings or comments from others provide more compelling evidence. In my view that is all part of learning and sharing information.
Personally I think it is good to allow a wide berth where interactions involve cultural and linguistic differences.

Getting back to this valuable and constructive discussion on the 'Sinclair sabre' case, thank you gentlemen for the additional notes and references.

Again, it remains inconclusive on whether or not any tessaks were among the Scots ranks in this unfortunate event at Kringen in 1612. References as noted, suggest that the Scots were 'lightly' armed as they expected to receive more arms upon arrival in Sweden.
It is clear that as a matter of record, the tessaks were used by the Norwegian forces at this time, and these had been supplied from Germany.

I think that the examples of these swords in the museum being among battlefield debris after Kringen may be labeled as from the Scottish forces as a typical assumption, perhaps supporting tacitly the 'Sinclair' legacy.
It is noted that the Scots did have some basket hilts, and while curved blade types were known ('turcael'), it does not seem that these troops' swords had those, nor that one of these tessaks would have been confused with such examples.

The only, and tenuous, explanation for the possibility of tessaks being among the Scottish forces would be that they had long prior been quite familiar with the Norwegian regions where they landed. In fact, Sinclair's heritage and ancestry had come from these areas, and it seems odd that the Scots were sided with Sweden. With that history of contact, it is tempting to consider that the tessak was at least somewhat known to the Scots prior to 1612, and perhaps some had been diffused to Scotland in degree.

Getting back to the association of the tessak to the Kringen battle by the Sinclair moniker, again, that was strictly a romanticly oriented case commemorating Sinclair due to his peerage and connections to Norway.
It would seem that the term presumed the Scots were actually armed with these.

The idea that the term would have been given to these swords from the intent to use them against Sinclair, in the manner of the swords termed to schwedendegen does not seem likely to me. The use of such colloquial terms for a weapon may apply more broadly as toward the Swedes as noted, but not likely toward a past event or a vanquished leader.

25th November 2016, 05:16 PM	#25
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	While I cannot add much to the connoisseur's discussion on wines (most wine I ever drink is from a box )....I can clarify that my note on corrections was toward the fact that I often correct myself as new findings or comments from others provide more compelling evidence. In my view that is all part of learning and sharing information. Personally I think it is good to allow a wide berth where interactions involve cultural and linguistic differences. Getting back to this valuable and constructive discussion on the 'Sinclair sabre' case, thank you gentlemen for the additional notes and references. Again, it remains inconclusive on whether or not any tessaks were among the Scots ranks in this unfortunate event at Kringen in 1612. References as noted, suggest that the Scots were 'lightly' armed as they expected to receive more arms upon arrival in Sweden. It is clear that as a matter of record, the tessaks were used by the Norwegian forces at this time, and these had been supplied from Germany. I think that the examples of these swords in the museum being among battlefield debris after Kringen may be labeled as from the Scottish forces as a typical assumption, perhaps supporting tacitly the 'Sinclair' legacy. It is noted that the Scots did have some basket hilts, and while curved blade types were known ('turcael'), it does not seem that these troops' swords had those, nor that one of these tessaks would have been confused with such examples. The only, and tenuous, explanation for the possibility of tessaks being among the Scottish forces would be that they had long prior been quite familiar with the Norwegian regions where they landed. In fact, Sinclair's heritage and ancestry had come from these areas, and it seems odd that the Scots were sided with Sweden. With that history of contact, it is tempting to consider that the tessak was at least somewhat known to the Scots prior to 1612, and perhaps some had been diffused to Scotland in degree. Getting back to the association of the tessak to the Kringen battle by the Sinclair moniker, again, that was strictly a romanticly oriented case commemorating Sinclair due to his peerage and connections to Norway. It would seem that the term presumed the Scots were actually armed with these. The idea that the term would have been given to these swords from the intent to use them against Sinclair, in the manner of the swords termed to schwedendegen does not seem likely to me. The use of such colloquial terms for a weapon may apply more broadly as toward the Swedes as noted, but not likely toward a past event or a vanquished leader.