Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - The half moon symbol in early Spanish swords

fernando · 2nd March 2017, 04:27 PM

Actually Jim, i thought this subject was by now depleted of new entries once, in one had, we don't see so many interested in following it and, on the other, exhaustive web research has been so dry of results that it looks like this came to an end.
When suddenly the fountain of knowledge opened its tap and we are again contemplated with further info.
If we have a second to look to the notes of JOSE MARIA PELAEZ VALLE called COMENTARIOS METALÚRGICOS A LA TECNOLOGIA DE PROCESOS DE ELABORACIÓN DEL ACERO DE LAS ESPADAS DE TOLEDO DESCRITAS EN EL DOCUMENTO DE PALOMARES DE 1772, we may catch that, among Palomares dual position in that, in one hand, he rejects the mystic of the Tagus river being the explanation for Toledan swords quality, rather than the competence of their smiths forging techniques, soon after he romantically points out the gold particles in their sand melting to a fine varnish that impeaches the sparks escaping from the steel spirit, we carry on reading the above author's chronicle in that Palomares work is neither definite nor complete in that, for one, he fails to mention that Juan Martinez (el Viejo), used a contrast of a figure looking like a fleur de liz, with examples in the Dresden Museum, inventory numbers bla and bla.
Aun así, el trabajo no es definitivo ni completo; piezas auténticamente inequívocas portan hojas de espaderos famosos referenciados en la tabla con marcas distintas a las que figuran en la misma .
5 - Un simple ejemplo: Juan Martínez (el Viejo) usaba un contraste de figura parecida a una flor de lis que no aparece en la tabla de Palomares. Ejemplares de la colección Dresde HMD VI/306, INV 1606 y HM D INV 1832 I 170/17.
Now, this fits precisely into the description of Jehan Lhermite in his "Passetemps". Once this being the smoke caused by fire, we keep on hammering on this path and, going deeper into the magnificent Met sword already posted in Cerjak's sword thread, we find a set of marks of Juan Martinez that are very elucidatory:
Marking: On the ricasso, the following Toledo marks: a crowned T repeated six times; a half moon repeated four times (and twice again at the end of blade grooves); a crowned fleur-de-lis repeated four times.
. Then we proceed digging into the Master's work spread out there and we find the following article by LECH MAREK, called RAPIERS BY JUAN MARTINEZ THE ELDER – THE ROYAL SWORD-SMITH FROM TOLEDO FOUND IN POLAND, including some the swords forged by the Master, and which presents us with outstanding revelations, such as, the half moon being an individual mark, the To being the Toledan export mark and the fleur-de-liz being the mark of Espadero del Rey. Interestingly the half moon depicted in the illustrations has a slight rostrillo inside it.
So it looks like a fait accomplis that Sir James Mann inference on the half moon's attribution is more of a silogism that lacks foundation. But now we have the fleur-de-liz being the newly appointed star. May this one make more sense ... knowing that this is a symbol of the Royal Bourbon Family, still figuring in the Coat of Arms of Spain.

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2nd March 2017, 04:27 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,636	Actually Jim, i thought this subject was by now depleted of new entries once, in one had, we don't see so many interested in following it and, on the other, exhaustive web research has been so dry of results that it looks like this came to an end. When suddenly the fountain of knowledge opened its tap and we are again contemplated with further info. If we have a second to look to the notes of JOSE MARIA PELAEZ VALLE called COMENTARIOS METALÚRGICOS A LA TECNOLOGIA DE PROCESOS DE ELABORACIÓN DEL ACERO DE LAS ESPADAS DE TOLEDO DESCRITAS EN EL DOCUMENTO DE PALOMARES DE 1772, we may catch that, among Palomares dual position in that, in one hand, he rejects the mystic of the Tagus river being the explanation for Toledan swords quality, rather than the competence of their smiths forging techniques, soon after he romantically points out the gold particles in their sand melting to a fine varnish that impeaches the sparks escaping from the steel spirit, we carry on reading the above author's chronicle in that Palomares work is neither definite nor complete in that, for one, he fails to mention that Juan Martinez (el Viejo), used a contrast of a figure looking like a fleur de liz, with examples in the Dresden Museum, inventory numbers bla and bla. Aun así, el trabajo no es definitivo ni completo; piezas auténticamente inequívocas portan hojas de espaderos famosos referenciados en la tabla con marcas distintas a las que figuran en la misma . 5 - Un simple ejemplo: Juan Martínez (el Viejo) usaba un contraste de figura parecida a una flor de lis que no aparece en la tabla de Palomares. Ejemplares de la colección Dresde HMD VI/306, INV 1606 y HM D INV 1832 I 170/17. Now, this fits precisely into the description of Jehan Lhermite in his "Passetemps". Once this being the smoke caused by fire, we keep on hammering on this path and, going deeper into the magnificent Met sword already posted in Cerjak's sword thread, we find a set of marks of Juan Martinez that are very elucidatory: Marking: On the ricasso, the following Toledo marks: a crowned T repeated six times; a half moon repeated four times (and twice again at the end of blade grooves); a crowned fleur-de-lis repeated four times. . Then we proceed digging into the Master's work spread out there and we find the following article by LECH MAREK, called RAPIERS BY JUAN MARTINEZ THE ELDER – THE ROYAL SWORD-SMITH FROM TOLEDO FOUND IN POLAND, including some the swords forged by the Master, and which presents us with outstanding revelations, such as, the half moon being an individual mark, the To being the Toledan export mark and the fleur-de-liz being the mark of Espadero del Rey. Interestingly the half moon depicted in the illustrations has a slight rostrillo inside it. So it looks like a fait accomplis that Sir James Mann inference on the half moon's attribution is more of a silogism that lacks foundation. But now we have the fleur-de-liz being the newly appointed star. May this one make more sense ... knowing that this is a symbol of the Royal Bourbon Family, still figuring in the Coat of Arms of Spain. - Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 2nd March 2017 at 04:43 PM.