Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:42 PM

Old 26th November 2012, 04:19 PM #250

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades.

It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings.

Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile?

In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. (Quote)

Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed a very interesting subject and we are all waiting to see the entire sword please "theswordcollector" if you can publish a picture ... ? I see a lot of fake marked passau wolf and moons etc etc though I suspect some drift into Red Sea areas of German Broadswords and dare I say it, late Constantinople swords, I have no proof except a strange similarity in some Saudia blades that look mildly Mamluke..

My real question is; Are Schiavona(the double edged variety) linked to Red Sea variants?

It would be good to see a full blade please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

19th October 2017, 03:42 PM	#221
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Old 26th November 2012, 04:19 PM #250 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Jim McDougall The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades. It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings. Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile? In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. (Quote) Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed a very interesting subject and we are all waiting to see the entire sword please "theswordcollector" if you can publish a picture ... ? I see a lot of fake marked passau wolf and moons etc etc though I suspect some drift into Red Sea areas of German Broadswords and dare I say it, late Constantinople swords, I have no proof except a strange similarity in some Saudia blades that look mildly Mamluke.. My real question is; Are Schiavona(the double edged variety) linked to Red Sea variants? It would be good to see a full blade please. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:01 PM.