[A. G. Maisey]

David, if I have offended you I most sincerely apologise.

I extend my apology further if you have perceived my statement of opinion as a statement that finds fault with your opinion.

You have put forward your opinion, I have put forward my opinion, as I have stated more than once, in this thread there are no rights and no wrongs.

My objective is to try to draw out the opinions of all those who have an opinion, if this thread were to deteriorate into a point scoring match this would discourage people from floating their opinions. Thus, it began as, and as far as I am concerned, it remains simply a place to put forward an opinion.

Nobody is necessarily right, and nobody is necessarily wrong.

Just opinions.

The point I was trying to make, and that I apparently failed to do, is that the Javanese may have a concept that a European would regard as magic, but the Javanese perception of that concept would be not be similar to the European perception. The Javanese person would think about the idea in a different way to the way in which the European person would think about the same idea.

To a degree I've dug my own grave here, by straying into commenting on an area of keris belief and Javanese belief that I am usually very careful to avoid, except in face to face discussion with people who have the background that permits them to accept as understood many of the ideas associated with this area of Javanese culture.

I have absolutely no problem at all with you, or anybody else considering some of the things about the keris, and about Javanese culture as being either "magick", or "magic". This is an individual prerogative.

In fact, the Javanese word "sihir" is very close to the Oxford definition of magic, but that Javanese word is not an indigenous Javanese word, and does not represent an indigenous Javanese concept that can be applied to the keris.

However, many of the ideas that both enthusiasts outside and inside Jawa now apply to the keris do come within the ambit of the Oxford definition of "magic".

So, to return to the main thrust of this thread:- where might some of these ideas have come from, and why?

Did "sihir" enter the language along with Sufism?

David, again I apologise for any offense , negation, insult or criticism which you may find in my comments, please be assured, I am not attacking you, I am merely stating my opinion, which you are welcome to accept or reject as you see fit.

Edit

I probably should mention that when I think about magic within the Western European framework, I am thinking in terms of the folk ideas of magic, the ideas of magic held by the common people that have been handed down to them by their ancestors, and represented in the English language by the Oxford definition.
I do not have the specialist knowledge necessary to presume to comment of the ideas of Aleister Crowley's "magick".