Definitely, i lack the necessary profile to interpreter all opinions gathered, as well as the written material i can get hold of, to discern the differences between Spanish and Portuguese swords, in this case cup hilted ones, namely the (my) example posted here in the first place … as sell as others.
That is to admit that, to my view, specimens shown here and there, in confrontation to what i read about these swords typology, make the exception larger than the rule.
Again i say that it must be my limited focusing capacity, for lack of experience and or my inability to read the data provided with the necessary skill.
In addition to the comments posted by Marc, Chris, Gonzalo, Jim and Manolo, let me here transcribe the (translated) comments from the Spanish seller ( which i ‘promised’ to post but never did ), as well as the comments of Juan J. Perez, a well known connoisseur.
(From Lluc Sala)
Concerning your cuphilt sword, the details that make think it is a possible Spanish production, are the cup shallow profile and the short length of the grip (between the two ferrules). Such are details that usually occur in Spanish pieces. Nevertheless, old weapons are not an exact science and it is of common knowledge that between Spain and Portugal there were several similarities of styles and construction, some of them being almost identical.
(From Juan J. Perez)
Yes, there are differences. Some of them are subtle, while others aren't. For swords dating from 1670 upward, I think the most relevant (and evident!) difference is that Portuguese hilts usually lack their arms. I mean, the cup is soldered right to the quillons, there being no additional arms emerging from the quillon block, in order to secure the cup. This is specially true regarding military swords.
However, this particular feature may also be found on Spanish colonial pieces, but in my opinion it has a Portuguese origin.
The seller of this sword thought that the hilt may be Spanish, being the blade obviously Portuguese or made for the Portuguese market. It may well be.
I must say i am not that much short sighted (not too much sex
) as not to see a few remarks consistent in the typology quoted by the various sources. However and as i said, i seem to find as many exceptions around … be it cup bowl depth and diameter, quillons fixation, grip length, pommel shape and so on.
Indeed the “Peninsular” connotation suits better this Portuguese/Spanish (or Spanish/Portuguese) duality, on what touches hilt typology.
Blades appear to be a thematic with a different approach. German (and Italian) production was significantly poured into the Peninsula, to fulfil the immense demand, certainly aggravated by massive detachment to the colonies. Also here and with the due difference in either (Peninsular) country dimensions, also Portugal consumed some of this production; Solingen blades are found all over, be them real or fake … a phenomenon similar to Toledo specimens. I also realize that when a cup hilt sword has a German shape, including hilt, it would quicker be an example to be used in the Peninsula, than to be used in its country of origin. Maybe this is the reason why those few are found in the Madrid Museum, for one.
I will post here two interesting examples of cup hilt variations; one with a(often quoted) short grip, those where you could only fit three fingers; and another with a (also mentioned) dust keeper (guarda polvo). The first one, from the XVII century, with a short 83 cms waving blade and wide quillons, is quoted as civilian. The author considers that the legend IN SOLINGEN in the blade, could well be an original as well as an imitation. No origin (Spain/Portugal) precised. The second one, besides also placed in the XVII century, is stressed by the author as being from after 1640, and so tagged as Portuguese, once the legend in the blade reads VIVA PORTUGAL, an expression contextually used after or in course of liberation from the Spanish domination. In the perspective of this author, this is the (only ?) symptom that differentiates (Peninsular) cup hilt swords from being Spanish or Portuguese.
By this point of view, i would conclude that my specific sword is Portuguese; i don’t see a Portuguese client go order from a Spanish smith a sword with such a controversial nationalist motto. But that is only a theory … or not even so. On the other hand, we must not forget that this sword was at sale in Spain … mind you, after three hundred years; a theory not better than the first one.
Interesting also to note is that the first specimen has its quillons welded to the cup bowl, whereas the second one uses the screw method … but, important thing, the author quotes this variation as less common.
Enough of this nonsense talk.
Fernando
.