Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

ariel · 26th December 2007, 08:50 PM

Let's define the question: Karabela is a saber with a characteristic "eaglehead" handle.

This is, supposedly, the contribution of Shah Abbas ( 1571-1629, reigned since 1588). He first invaded Mesopotamia ( war with the Ottoman Empire) in 1603-1605 and that was the earliest he could see the shrine in Karbala from the door grilles of which he supposedly got the inspiration for the new type of handle ( as per M. Khorasani's book " Arms and Armor from Iran"). The author cites Lebedynsky's description of a portrait of Sultan Selim the Grim (reigned 1512-1520) wearing this type of sword, but persists in claiming that the priority belongs to the Safavids. The earliest example cited by him is the sword attributed to Shah Safi ( 1629-1642). That should be enough already.

Additional evidence in favor of a Turkish origin:
1. Kwasniewicz " Dzieja sczabli w Polsce"
- cites contemporary descriptions of the raid by Kalisk and Poznan principalities against Turks and Wallachs in 1497-1498, with Poles armed with "karabelkas"

- Early 16th century doggerel by Waclaw Potocki
" As long as we carried swords, sabers and kords,
We were not afraid of the Horde.
But as soon as Karabelkas and Czeczugas got to be worn by a Pole,
The plows went idle over Ukraine and Podol"
( Sorry for the translation

)
- p.72: pictures of Polish "eagle head sabers with or without yelman, dated to 16-17th centuries.
- description of "eaglehead" Polish swords in the museum collections in London, Netherlands and Sweden ( captured during the Swedish "deluge" war in 1655-1660, but, obviously, made earlier)

2. Astvatsaturyan : "Turkish Weapons"
- cites and shows ( p.90) drawings of an" eaglehead" sword from the book by De Marsilli ( real spelling was, likely, different, but the book was published in Russian in St. Petersbourg, 1737) " Military state of the Ottoman Empire with its ascendancy and decline"
_ presents photographs of several Ottoman "eaglehead" swords from the collection of the State Historical Museum in Moscow, bearing tugras of Ahmed II ( 1691-1695) and his successors till 1730.

3. "Hongaarse Wapenpraal"

_ p.38: picture of a Hungarian saber with eaglehead handle dated to the beginning of 17th cen.

4.Wagner " Swords and Daggers"
- pp. 96-97: Turkish and Polish Karabelas with "eaglehead" handles dated 17th cen from "MM's" collection

5."Ubojite Ostrice" ( collection from Croatian museums)

- p.70: Hungarian "eaglehead " Karabela 17th cen

Thus, it is quite obvious that the "eaglehead" Karabela handle was known in Eastern Europe and Turkey well before the supposed visit of Shah Abbas to Karbala. Nothing to do with Persia.
Well, at least, Safavid Persia invented... Nanotechnology!

http://www.persianmirror.com/Article...ubCategory=115

26th December 2007, 08:50 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Let's define the question: Karabela is a saber with a characteristic "eaglehead" handle. This is, supposedly, the contribution of Shah Abbas ( 1571-1629, reigned since 1588). He first invaded Mesopotamia ( war with the Ottoman Empire) in 1603-1605 and that was the earliest he could see the shrine in Karbala from the door grilles of which he supposedly got the inspiration for the new type of handle ( as per M. Khorasani's book " Arms and Armor from Iran"). The author cites Lebedynsky's description of a portrait of Sultan Selim the Grim (reigned 1512-1520) wearing this type of sword, but persists in claiming that the priority belongs to the Safavids. The earliest example cited by him is the sword attributed to Shah Safi ( 1629-1642). That should be enough already. Additional evidence in favor of a Turkish origin: 1. Kwasniewicz " Dzieja sczabli w Polsce" - cites contemporary descriptions of the raid by Kalisk and Poznan principalities against Turks and Wallachs in 1497-1498, with Poles armed with "karabelkas" - Early 16th century doggerel by Waclaw Potocki " As long as we carried swords, sabers and kords, We were not afraid of the Horde. But as soon as Karabelkas and Czeczugas got to be worn by a Pole, The plows went idle over Ukraine and Podol" ( Sorry for the translation ) - p.72: pictures of Polish "eagle head sabers with or without yelman, dated to 16-17th centuries. - description of "eaglehead" Polish swords in the museum collections in London, Netherlands and Sweden ( captured during the Swedish "deluge" war in 1655-1660, but, obviously, made earlier) 2. Astvatsaturyan : "Turkish Weapons" - cites and shows ( p.90) drawings of an" eaglehead" sword from the book by De Marsilli ( real spelling was, likely, different, but the book was published in Russian in St. Petersbourg, 1737) " Military state of the Ottoman Empire with its ascendancy and decline" _ presents photographs of several Ottoman "eaglehead" swords from the collection of the State Historical Museum in Moscow, bearing tugras of Ahmed II ( 1691-1695) and his successors till 1730. 3. "Hongaarse Wapenpraal" _ p.38: picture of a Hungarian saber with eaglehead handle dated to the beginning of 17th cen. 4.Wagner " Swords and Daggers" - pp. 96-97: Turkish and Polish Karabelas with "eaglehead" handles dated 17th cen from "MM's" collection 5."Ubojite Ostrice" ( collection from Croatian museums) - p.70: Hungarian "eaglehead " Karabela 17th cen Thus, it is quite obvious that the "eaglehead" Karabela handle was known in Eastern Europe and Turkey well before the supposed visit of Shah Abbas to Karbala. Nothing to do with Persia. Well, at least, Safavid Persia invented... Nanotechnology! http://www.persianmirror.com/Article...ubCategory=115 Last edited by ariel; 26th December 2007 at 11:21 PM.