Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2005, 12:36 AM

Jeff,
Thank you! Good observations as noted in Elgood's book, those quillon terminals are very similar, also the wire wrap around grip base over the vertical langet is as noted an Arabian favored characteristic on many of these sabres.

Erlikhan:
The pistol grip Ottoman hilt in ivory is very unusual, and I think it is important to note that the Arabs typically favored Persian shamshir hilts, which were of course usually ivory. Much of the Arabian littoral was under Ottoman suzerainty and it would not seem unusual that an Ottoman hilt in the material of favor, ivory, might be custom made for a notable individual in those regions, most likely the western from Syria, the Hijaz and as far as Yemen.

The 'Spanish motto' on the blade has nothing to do with special application to Spaniards in this case, it is simply a favored motto that found use on many trade blades of quality, and as previously noted, appears on trade blades in stylized form to suggest quality, and nothing to do with the nationality etc. of the user of the sword it is mounted in. As I mentioned, these blades came out of the Caucusian areas, or even with Armenian swordsmiths in Transcaucasian regions (the lettering style of Armenian in many ways resembles Georgian, used to transliterate the Latin phrase).
Going to Syria for hilting to export into Arabia is most likely, and the Ottoman style hilt has nothing necessarily do do with Turkey as noted these regions of Arabia were only nominally under Ottoman (Turkish) control.
In reviewing Elgood (op.cit.) on page 23 (fig.2.19) there is an Arabian sa'if which has similar 'agrab' feature as yours on the scabbard locket. On page 62, discussing conflicts c.1917, Elgood notes,"...Ibn Sa'ud was about to settle old scores with his great rivals, the Al Rashid of Ha'il who were pro-Turkey". Could this pro Turkish tribe of Ha'il (located due NE of Hijaz and NW of Nejd, south of Syria) be one likely candidate for such an Ottoman styled weapon?

Rivkin,
That is a very well stated description of the 'gurda' term, and this appears to be a very nice example of in my opinion a Daghestani shashka (it is often very hard to distinguish between Daghestani and Chechen). The blade however does appear a very good quality Chechen blade. You are being quite conservative in the estimate on these shashkas, I've seen them go for a lot more!

Erlikhan, the USMC sabre is of course 20th century, and likely somewhat recent, however these sabres are very revered by their owners. Recently one was found at a garage sale, and found its way back to its original owner, having been stolen nearly 20 years ago. The officer had served in Viet Nam and was elated to get his sword back. In 2003, I was asked by a former Marine officer about the history of these so called 'mameluke' sabres, and the subsequent research resulted in my article which was published in the "Marine Corps Gazette" online magazine. While not necessarily 'old' , these sabres are proud examples of the true tradition of the sword which is carried forth to this day. I have tried to relocate the article online but haven't been able to (November 2003 issue under byline James E. McDougall), but if you're interested in a copy contact me PM and I'll send one.

You really hit the jackpot with these swords!!! Congratulations!
All the best,
Jim

18th February 2005, 12:36 AM	#22
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,742	Jeff, Thank you! Good observations as noted in Elgood's book, those quillon terminals are very similar, also the wire wrap around grip base over the vertical langet is as noted an Arabian favored characteristic on many of these sabres. Erlikhan: The pistol grip Ottoman hilt in ivory is very unusual, and I think it is important to note that the Arabs typically favored Persian shamshir hilts, which were of course usually ivory. Much of the Arabian littoral was under Ottoman suzerainty and it would not seem unusual that an Ottoman hilt in the material of favor, ivory, might be custom made for a notable individual in those regions, most likely the western from Syria, the Hijaz and as far as Yemen. The 'Spanish motto' on the blade has nothing to do with special application to Spaniards in this case, it is simply a favored motto that found use on many trade blades of quality, and as previously noted, appears on trade blades in stylized form to suggest quality, and nothing to do with the nationality etc. of the user of the sword it is mounted in. As I mentioned, these blades came out of the Caucusian areas, or even with Armenian swordsmiths in Transcaucasian regions (the lettering style of Armenian in many ways resembles Georgian, used to transliterate the Latin phrase). Going to Syria for hilting to export into Arabia is most likely, and the Ottoman style hilt has nothing necessarily do do with Turkey as noted these regions of Arabia were only nominally under Ottoman (Turkish) control. In reviewing Elgood (op.cit.) on page 23 (fig.2.19) there is an Arabian sa'if which has similar 'agrab' feature as yours on the scabbard locket. On page 62, discussing conflicts c.1917, Elgood notes,"...Ibn Sa'ud was about to settle old scores with his great rivals, the Al Rashid of Ha'il who were pro-Turkey". Could this pro Turkish tribe of Ha'il (located due NE of Hijaz and NW of Nejd, south of Syria) be one likely candidate for such an Ottoman styled weapon? Rivkin, That is a very well stated description of the 'gurda' term, and this appears to be a very nice example of in my opinion a Daghestani shashka (it is often very hard to distinguish between Daghestani and Chechen). The blade however does appear a very good quality Chechen blade. You are being quite conservative in the estimate on these shashkas, I've seen them go for a lot more! Erlikhan, the USMC sabre is of course 20th century, and likely somewhat recent, however these sabres are very revered by their owners. Recently one was found at a garage sale, and found its way back to its original owner, having been stolen nearly 20 years ago. The officer had served in Viet Nam and was elated to get his sword back. In 2003, I was asked by a former Marine officer about the history of these so called 'mameluke' sabres, and the subsequent research resulted in my article which was published in the "Marine Corps Gazette" online magazine. While not necessarily 'old' , these sabres are proud examples of the true tradition of the sword which is carried forth to this day. I have tried to relocate the article online but haven't been able to (November 2003 issue under byline James E. McDougall), but if you're interested in a copy contact me PM and I'll send one. You really hit the jackpot with these swords!!! Congratulations! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th February 2005 at 01:44 AM.