Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - les Apaches-unusual combo revolvers

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2009, 06:39 AM

Thank you for responding on this Gene, and for the very well reasoned observations on the short barrel guns. It seemed interesting to me also that these interesting apache guns were sans barrel, begging the question of just how effective they must have been. Obviously in very up close and personal situations they must have done thier work, much like the makeshift 'zip guns' known in more recent times 'street' environments.

Your comments on gun barrels of shorter length being better in quick draw application are well placed, with the shorter 4 3/4" barrel preferable. However, the 'fast draw' of the wild west is essentially a myth, along with the 'showdown' face to face often seen in movies and described in novels. Joseph G. Rosa describes these matters well in "The Gunfighter: Man or Myth?" (1969) and he is a brilliant historian on this subject.
It seems that actually such confrontations were unusual at best, and while obviously getting a gun out quickly was important, accuracy was much more so, and the holster was one of the essential points of focus.

The 'quickdraw' and the 'rig' holster was more a product of more modern times, I believe into the 20's and 30's, and with the popularity of the western novels and advent of Hollywood westerns.

The standard length of gunbarrels for the well known Colt SAA 'peacemaker' and frontier revolvers was 7.5". When Ned Buntline came up with the now legendary idea for five special revolvers with extra long 12" barrels in 1876, presenting them to five notable lawmen; Wyatt Earp, Charlie Bassett, Bat Masterson, Bill Tilghman and Neal Brown, it is difficult to understand the idea behind these long barrels.
Masterson and Tilghman had their barrels cut down to the standard 7.5", the others as far as is known remained the same.
The use of these long barrel guns remains unclear, and despite popular legend, it is believed that Earp at the OK Corral was carrying a Smith & Wesson...further, not wearing a holster, with the gun in his overcoat pocket.

Leaving the gunfighters and returning to very short barrel guns, there were indeed Colts known as 'house' pistols with 1.5" to 3.5" barrels and I believe four chambers, often termed cloverleaf guns. I think these must have been much the same as the 'muff' pistols you note.These were 'hideout' guns used by bankers, merchants and gamblers, in 'inside' work. It is likely that some gunfighters might have carried these as well.

Interesting notes you place on the powder burns associated with the cap and ball revolvers, and the shot from these was indeed often incendiary resulting in clothing of the victim being ignited.

Thanks for adding to this topic, and giving it more perspective. It seems to me your suggestion of altering barrels must have existed somehow among some of these early gunfighters, they were actually pretty innovative, and searching further we might find something

All best regards,
Jim

27th December 2009, 06:39 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,768	Thank you for responding on this Gene, and for the very well reasoned observations on the short barrel guns. It seemed interesting to me also that these interesting apache guns were sans barrel, begging the question of just how effective they must have been. Obviously in very up close and personal situations they must have done thier work, much like the makeshift 'zip guns' known in more recent times 'street' environments. Your comments on gun barrels of shorter length being better in quick draw application are well placed, with the shorter 4 3/4" barrel preferable. However, the 'fast draw' of the wild west is essentially a myth, along with the 'showdown' face to face often seen in movies and described in novels. Joseph G. Rosa describes these matters well in "The Gunfighter: Man or Myth?" (1969) and he is a brilliant historian on this subject. It seems that actually such confrontations were unusual at best, and while obviously getting a gun out quickly was important, accuracy was much more so, and the holster was one of the essential points of focus. The 'quickdraw' and the 'rig' holster was more a product of more modern times, I believe into the 20's and 30's, and with the popularity of the western novels and advent of Hollywood westerns. The standard length of gunbarrels for the well known Colt SAA 'peacemaker' and frontier revolvers was 7.5". When Ned Buntline came up with the now legendary idea for five special revolvers with extra long 12" barrels in 1876, presenting them to five notable lawmen; Wyatt Earp, Charlie Bassett, Bat Masterson, Bill Tilghman and Neal Brown, it is difficult to understand the idea behind these long barrels. Masterson and Tilghman had their barrels cut down to the standard 7.5", the others as far as is known remained the same. The use of these long barrel guns remains unclear, and despite popular legend, it is believed that Earp at the OK Corral was carrying a Smith & Wesson...further, not wearing a holster, with the gun in his overcoat pocket. Leaving the gunfighters and returning to very short barrel guns, there were indeed Colts known as 'house' pistols with 1.5" to 3.5" barrels and I believe four chambers, often termed cloverleaf guns. I think these must have been much the same as the 'muff' pistols you note.These were 'hideout' guns used by bankers, merchants and gamblers, in 'inside' work. It is likely that some gunfighters might have carried these as well. Interesting notes you place on the powder burns associated with the cap and ball revolvers, and the shot from these was indeed often incendiary resulting in clothing of the victim being ignited. Thanks for adding to this topic, and giving it more perspective. It seems to me your suggestion of altering barrels must have existed somehow among some of these early gunfighters, they were actually pretty innovative, and searching further we might find something All best regards, Jim