Oh Alan, you should know mw well enough at this point to know that i am in no way insulted by your comments. You have certainly written nothing that i could be offended by.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
In fact, the Javanese word "sihir" is very close to the Oxford definition of magic, but that Javanese word is not an indigenous Javanese word, and does not represent an indigenous Javanese concept that can be applied to the keris.
However, many of the ideas that both enthusiasts outside and inside Jawa now apply to the keris do come within the ambit of the Oxford definition of "magic".
So, to return to the main thrust of this thread:- where might some of these ideas have come from, and why?
Did "sihir" enter the language along with Sufism?
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However, your line of response is a bit frustrating since it seems to pick and choose certain statements and ignore the rest and perhaps more important gist of what i am trying to say. I have already given the definition of magick that i choose to work from in order to give everyone as clear an idea of exactly what
I mean when
I use the word and say the i believe the Javanese have
always considered the keris to be a "magickal" object, even before European contact. In that context it is unimportant what the Oxford dictionary has to say about it or whether or not it is in alignment with the meaning of the Javanese word "sihir". And if the word "sihir" implies maleficent action it is obviously not what i am talking about. The definition i have put forth is not my own and has been used by practitioners of magickal arts and philosophies in the West for at least a century and probably understood as such for much longer than that. It is not something of my own invention that i simply pulled out of left field and slapped down here. There is undoubtably a schism between those who are personally involved in a magickal paradigm and lifestyle and those outside that paradigm who may have a more mundane definition that is generally driven by the fear of the unknown or unfamiliar and can only relate to the word in terms of fanciful acts (i.e. keris that fly through the air) or black magic intended to harm another. This is not what i mean when i use the word and have distinguished that by quoting my own world view definition and establishing the different spelling to avoid confusion. It does not seem to have worked, however.
However, if, as you state,
many of the ideas that both enthusiasts outside and inside Jawa now apply to the keris do come within the ambit of the Oxford definition of "magic" then it does indeed seem that those ideas of "magic" may indeed have entered the Javanese understanding from an outside source and you are probably right to imply that Islam/Sufism may have been that source. It seems to me that the idea of djinn and maleficent forces of the unseen world that can be used by unscrupulous individuals to wield power in the seen world is an Arabian concept. It is not, however, what i mean when i say that the keris is a magickal object.
