Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A.alnakkas · 8th March 2012, 05:55 PM

""Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..""

Wa Alaikum elSalam,

Ibrahim, I very much value the info which you have brought. But the "information" which you have brought to support that the straight saif is dance only are basically nothing but your own assumptions.

""1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only.""

I can claim that a duck is not a duck and insist upon it, but that does not make me right :-)

"" 2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing.""

Evidence states otherwise as there are straight saifs with solid to flexible (sharp and battle ready non the less) with older mounts.

""3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!""

This all could be right but again, Omanis now caring more for dancing blades do not say much about the time when the sword they danced with, was also the one they'd take for battle.

""4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)""

Are you against confirmation?

http://www.hdrmut.net/vb/t365731.html (pict of the full sword seems to be removed)

http://wadilaqat.forumarabia.com/t1022-topic

They dont say much but you can look for clues into how they refer to items. This is pretty much all I did and I used it as a supporting argument to your argument. This would be nice for you if you can read arabic.

""Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these. ""

Are you refering to Khyber knives? sure, there are short variants, but they are basically short swords and are used as swords.

""There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.""

Flexibility wouldnt really matter much if you are not going to parry with the sword. Imo, considering that most arabs rarely use any form of heavy armor, a saif with a sharp blade and some durability would be lethal even if its flexible or not.

""HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes.""

This is a strawman of my question. I asked about specific weapons (swords) which YOU have refered to as knives : "normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you" This is false information as a dha, a yataghan, shashkas, barongs and khyber knives are swords and certainly not the length of a knife (can argue that barongs and khybers are short but hey, not as short as a knife.)

Am sure you have more achievements done in your life but please do answer the questions instead of strawmans as they waste your and my time.

But to get more into the point, here are links to swords that are battle tested without guards and quillons:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=67

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3345

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3225

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4565

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=568

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=518

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3736

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3378

Using your logic, these are not combat weapons

""The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !""

Similar evolution. Again, these 2 sword types I never claimed to be one or anything, but they basically went into the same thing where a real thing turns into more of a dancing sword. :-)

8th March 2012, 05:55 PM	#270
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	""Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;.."" Wa Alaikum elSalam, Ibrahim, I very much value the info which you have brought. But the "information" which you have brought to support that the straight saif is dance only are basically nothing but your own assumptions. ""1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only."" I can claim that a duck is not a duck and insist upon it, but that does not make me right :-) "" 2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing."" Evidence states otherwise as there are straight saifs with solid to flexible (sharp and battle ready non the less) with older mounts. ""3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!"" This all could be right but again, Omanis now caring more for dancing blades do not say much about the time when the sword they danced with, was also the one they'd take for battle. ""4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)"" Are you against confirmation? http://www.hdrmut.net/vb/t365731.html (pict of the full sword seems to be removed) http://wadilaqat.forumarabia.com/t1022-topic They dont say much but you can look for clues into how they refer to items. This is pretty much all I did and I used it as a supporting argument to your argument. This would be nice for you if you can read arabic. ""Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these. "" Are you refering to Khyber knives? sure, there are short variants, but they are basically short swords and are used as swords. ""There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only."" Flexibility wouldnt really matter much if you are not going to parry with the sword. Imo, considering that most arabs rarely use any form of heavy armor, a saif with a sharp blade and some durability would be lethal even if its flexible or not. ""HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes."" This is a strawman of my question. I asked about specific weapons (swords) which YOU have refered to as knives : "normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you" This is false information as a dha, a yataghan, shashkas, barongs and khyber knives are swords and certainly not the length of a knife (can argue that barongs and khybers are short but hey, not as short as a knife.) Am sure you have more achievements done in your life but please do answer the questions instead of strawmans as they waste your and my time. But to get more into the point, here are links to swords that are battle tested without guards and quillons: http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=67 http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3345 http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3225 http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4565 http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=568 http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=518 http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3736 http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3378 Using your logic, these are not combat weapons ""The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !"" Similar evolution. Again, these 2 sword types I never claimed to be one or anything, but they basically went into the same thing where a real thing turns into more of a dancing sword. :-)