Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Reventlov · 8th July 2016, 01:04 PM

It is always nice to see new photos of a sword you have only known from Oakeshott's grainy little photos before.

The most interesting feature to me is the side-ring. Leaving aside the debate about dating this particular sword (though I tend to agree with cornelistromp above), I thought I would try to trace Oakeshott's references regarding the early occurrence of this type of hilt. I have not found Oakeshott's argument very convincing, but if others have further insight or more examples I would be very interested to see it!

Starting with the references mentioned in Archaeology of Weapons, we have:

1) A miniature in the Alba Bible, shown in full below as it appears in a B/W facsimile. Oakeshott's illustration is quite accurate - seems to be the best single potential evidence in art.

2) A confusing reference to the source of Oakeshott's second illustrated example... described as being from a "Bohemian bible" in the text, from a Gottingen copy of the Bellifortis circa 1405 in the caption, and then as a "Bohemian manuscript (1420)" in Sword in the Age of Chivalry. Best guess is that he is referring to Codex 64 in Gottingen, which includes the early Bellifortis and the 'Feuerwerkbuch von 1420'. Miniatures of this manuscript seem to be rarely reproduced unfortunately... To me, Oakeshott's illustration greatly resembles the rain guards which appear in other editions of the Bellifortis - compare with an artist's impression based on another Gottingen copy, Codex 63, also dated 1405. (Perhaps this is Oakeshott's source?)

http://www.handschriftencensus.de/19122

3) "Angular side-guards" shown in the Romance of Alexander, Bodleian ms. 264. Is he referring to the two-handed falchion-like weapons with rectangular, vertical knuckle bows? Doesn't seem like a particularly relevant comparison, but perhaps I missed a horizontal guard in one of the many miniatures...

4) Reference to an earlier figure, from a "Romance of Lancelot du Lac". I can't tell what is supposedly shown in this small illustration, and haven't managed to match this scene with a specific manuscript. What is shown in literally hundreds of contemporary miniatures (and in many Arthurian romances specifically) are swords with curved hilts and large ecussons. The hilts are sometimes illustrated with additional shading or line details... which could lead to a mistaken impression of a separate side-guard? XVIII.5 in Records seems to be one of the few survivors with this type of hilt.

5) An example from the Cantigas of Alfonso the Wise, which Oakeshott admits is borderline. Not fully digitized, but have spotted two possibilities that may show a "portion of its cross covers part of the back of its wielder's hand", as described. Could be simply illustrating the same/similar type of hilt discussed in point (4).

6) "There are literary references, too... from the fourteenth century".

7) In Sword in the Age of Chivalry, Oakeshott covers some of the same ground, but adds one additional physical example - the sword numbered G.30 in Madrid. Oakeshott dates it c. 1450, but I don't see why it coudn't equally likely be say c. 1500, like cornelistromp's second example with a similar curved side-ring. (The sword is traditionally attributed to the Gran Capitan, Gonzalo de Cordoba, though I don't know if there is any real basis for this).

8th July 2016, 01:04 PM	#15
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	It is always nice to see new photos of a sword you have only known from Oakeshott's grainy little photos before. The most interesting feature to me is the side-ring. Leaving aside the debate about dating this particular sword (though I tend to agree with cornelistromp above), I thought I would try to trace Oakeshott's references regarding the early occurrence of this type of hilt. I have not found Oakeshott's argument very convincing, but if others have further insight or more examples I would be very interested to see it! Starting with the references mentioned in Archaeology of Weapons, we have: 1) A miniature in the Alba Bible, shown in full below as it appears in a B/W facsimile. Oakeshott's illustration is quite accurate - seems to be the best single potential evidence in art. 2) A confusing reference to the source of Oakeshott's second illustrated example... described as being from a "Bohemian bible" in the text, from a Gottingen copy of the Bellifortis circa 1405 in the caption, and then as a "Bohemian manuscript (1420)" in Sword in the Age of Chivalry. Best guess is that he is referring to Codex 64 in Gottingen, which includes the early Bellifortis and the 'Feuerwerkbuch von 1420'. Miniatures of this manuscript seem to be rarely reproduced unfortunately... To me, Oakeshott's illustration greatly resembles the rain guards which appear in other editions of the Bellifortis - compare with an artist's impression based on another Gottingen copy, Codex 63, also dated 1405. (Perhaps this is Oakeshott's source?) http://www.handschriftencensus.de/19122 3) "Angular side-guards" shown in the Romance of Alexander, Bodleian ms. 264. Is he referring to the two-handed falchion-like weapons with rectangular, vertical knuckle bows? Doesn't seem like a particularly relevant comparison, but perhaps I missed a horizontal guard in one of the many miniatures... 4) Reference to an earlier figure, from a "Romance of Lancelot du Lac". I can't tell what is supposedly shown in this small illustration, and haven't managed to match this scene with a specific manuscript. What is shown in literally hundreds of contemporary miniatures (and in many Arthurian romances specifically) are swords with curved hilts and large ecussons. The hilts are sometimes illustrated with additional shading or line details... which could lead to a mistaken impression of a separate side-guard? XVIII.5 in Records seems to be one of the few survivors with this type of hilt. 5) An example from the Cantigas of Alfonso the Wise, which Oakeshott admits is borderline. Not fully digitized, but have spotted two possibilities that may show a "portion of its cross covers part of the back of its wielder's hand", as described. Could be simply illustrating the same/similar type of hilt discussed in point (4). 6) "There are literary references, too... from the fourteenth century". 7) In Sword in the Age of Chivalry, Oakeshott covers some of the same ground, but adds one additional physical example - the sword numbered G.30 in Madrid. Oakeshott dates it c. 1450, but I don't see why it coudn't equally likely be say c. 1500, like cornelistromp's second example with a similar curved side-ring. (The sword is traditionally attributed to the Gran Capitan, Gonzalo de Cordoba, though I don't know if there is any real basis for this). Attached Images Last edited by Reventlov; 8th July 2016 at 02:39 PM.