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Old 21st January 2009, 10:55 PM   #26
celtan
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Location: PR, USA
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Gonzalo, take it easy, don't get emotionally invested in a subject that only deserves unemotional discussion.

We are all here a bunch of friends and arm-chair historians. We should be able to discuss any and all military history subjects coolly. Our interest is in weapon collecting, and we need to be able to discuss history dispassionately in order to understand the origins and natures of the items we collect.

I haven't brought politics to this discussion. If you check, what I'm arguing is the universality of war itself, and the different excuses used to justify same, when in truth the main reason is economics, disguised
as religion or nationalism.

The basic conduct that we characterize as war has even bee been observed in apes, where they make concerted efforts to attack competing, or merely weaker adjacent ape groups. To deny its existence doesn't change the facts.

Regarding Lidice, that was a cheap shot. If you check my comments yesterday, I clearly state "...Czechoslovakia, Russia and Pomerania". Yet those are not the only places where such things happened, only the more widely known. And even if I were geographically confused, it wouldn't add anything to the subject, so that point is moot.

The French "resistance" was utterly ineffective, it was widely held to be _mostly_ a bunch of thieves using the excuse of patriotism to steal and kill people against which they had personal issues. The "resistance"
basically filled the vacuum left by the german forces on their retreat, here and there killing an isolated german soldier trying to get away, or surrendered prisoners, very brave indeed. They mostly victimized their own country men, or more exactly, country-women. Just watch the movie reels of that era, their behavior was sickening even to the newly arrived allied forces.

Regarding the burnings of jewish conquistadores. No, I don't know anything about it, but certainly would like to learn more.

Colon/Columbus himself was a Catalonian Jew, as were many members of his crew. America was intended to be the new Israel, which explains the economical backing obtained from Jewish Bankers, both converts and practicing. The Spanish Crown evicted Jews from their territories unless they converted to Christianity. As such, they were forbidden to colonize America, although many came over as converts. In those
days, if a forbidden colony was found, they were usually razed to the ground. All european powers did the same.

If you intended that as some sort of attack on Spain, let me remind you that Inquisition burnings after _two centuries_ numbered about 2000 (They kept inmaculate records). In only one year, medieval germans burned more that 100,000 witches at the stake. So you see, it's all a matter of perspective. All european powers behaved quite savagely according to modern standards, but comparatively speaking, Spain was a little kid.

In America, Mexican chichimecas engaged in the continuous "Wars Of The Flowers", where they would attack even friendly american nations just to get prisoners, this for continuous sacrifices in honor of the sun-god. Millions of americans were assasinated because of that horrible custom. That places the Aztecs on the same playing ground as the Nazis, the Turks and Stalinist Russia.

To gain proper perspective: Compare the Inquisition burnings _four centuries ago_ to modern Mexico. Just in the city of Nuevo Laredo, the "business" between Zetas, Sinaloas and the corrupt Federales kills more than that in a single year. They actually _burn their victims alive_ in drums filled with fuel. This practice is known as "el asado". At least the Inquisition (Spanish version, not the German or Italian, which were far more sanguine) usually executed their victims before burning them.
And that's _only one_ city of 21st Century Mexico. You see Gonzalo, I am very familiar with your country and its history, including the "Cristeros" and late 20th C. "Indiadas". Let's keep things civil, shall we?

The problem with Central and South America is that after the "Spaniards" "yoke was removed, they placed on themselves the Maya, the Inca, and the Chichimeca-Aztec yokes, which were far, far heavier than that of the Spanish.

The original American societies were extremely power-centered, very authoritarian regimes where european individuality had no place, which is exactly what the new creole rulers like Bolivar, Iturbide and Santa-Ana
wanted. As a result, these societies reverted to type (after all, most of their populations were and are ethnic-american), while European Spain, with a thousandth of the means and population of the New Spain, went on to become a First World Power again. So, perhaps the only thing evident is that European civilization is more effective that the Latinoamerican version, with its caciqueal undertones.

I didn't judge either Germans nor Israel's militaries, they did and do as they are forced to do, as did the Spanish in 39'. My point is that regular military forces are less brutal, less criminal if you will, than the motley groups that characterize guerrillas. Not perfect, mind you, just less evil.

Empires come and go, and their rulers don't care whether the rest of the world likes them or not. That's a fact. Propaganda? I have no reason to preach any, and no interest either. I'm deeply offended that you suggest so.

After the fall of the Soviet Union in 83?, many documents surfaced, proving among other things the plans for an inmediate subsequent invasion of Europe with Tank Regiments in 1945'. In fact, the fighting between Allies and Russians had already started, including air-to-air open combat, inprisonment of allied military advisers within Russia, as well as of allied prisoners "liberated" from German camps within the Russian zones. The Russians became so bold as to even snatch allied soldiers in broad daylight from allied held zones.

Other documents reveal that part of the terrible acts committed during the Spanish civil war by both sides were in fact provoked by Russian agents in Spain. Some nights they would capture and kill notable members from the Nationalist side while dressed and acting as Republicans, the next they'd do the same to the Republicans but dressed and acting as Nationalists, that's what set the bloody ball rolling. These documents proved without a shadow of a doubt that the Russian assistance was part of a plan to make Spain a communist satellite country, and that Russia had no interest in preserving the Republic at all. These are not "Propaganda", just verifiable facts.

You don't believe in the "Armenian Genocide"? What about the more modern "Jewish Holocaust"? Of the former, you can find significant amounts of literature, specially interesting if it's true it did never happened. Just check http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armen...s/gen_bib1.html.


Please understand that these subjects hold no particularly relevance to me, and the arguments posited do not directly affect me, nor I do I have any vested interests or views on any of them. Neither do I claim to be the holder of the ultimate truths about anything. Heck, I might be wrong about everything! But by entertaining other views, we grow as thinking, reasoning beings.

Lastly, I don't want to create further polemics, we share our thoughts and beliefs on this forum out of sheer fun. I think this discussion has ceased to be a pleasant exchange of ideas. So, let's simply agree to disagree on some of the posted issues. I will not write further comments on this issue, for me the matter is closed.

After all, we are all friends here.

Best regards,


Manuel


BTW: In combat, European fencing and stabbing usually trounces slashing Katanas. : )
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