Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

A. G. Maisey · 31st August 2008, 09:12 AM

I think maybe it has already disappeared Henk.

It probably doesn't matter a great deal if collectors in Holland or collectors in US, or collectors in Australia use Javanese names to describe a dhapur or pamor, or ricikan---as you say the person you're talking to knows what you mean. For that matter you could use Dutch, or English or any other language, they'd all serve the same purpose of conveying an idea from one person to another.

However, the whole problem with this name game of dhapur and pamor is that there is only one name that is correct, and that is only correct according to the pakem that defines it, and within the cultural framework that produced the pakem. Move 40 miles down the road and the rules change.

To be honest, I gave up on dhapur and pamor names maybe 30 years ago. As soon as I realised that people in different keris study groups and different cultural alignments in Jawa itself cannot agree over a lot of the supposedly "correct" names, I asked myself why I, a bule with no affiliation with any keris study group, or any Javanese cultural group, should bother to be too pedantic about which is the supposedly "correct" name, and which is not. Yes, I tend towards the parameters set by Surakarta, but that it a tendency, it is not iron-bound.

Yes, many of the common forms and motifs will have the same name in various places, but I once listened to a debate between two ---or maybe three--- very respected ahli keris as to what the correct ricikan for a particular dhapur--- I think it was Anoman--- were. It went on interminably, it amounted to no more than opinion, and it left one of these gentlemen fuming and frothing at the mouth.There was no resolution.All concerned went away believing he was correct and the others were uneducated fools.

I don't think we can use Javanese names for many, if not most keris from places outside Jawa, because even though a Balinese keris might be close to a particular Javanese dhapur, it will probably vary in some minor detail, and in any case, the pawakan is wrong before you go anywhere. Then you need to ask yourself which Javanese pakem you're using.

In my opinion it is better to describe any but the most simple keris forms in terms of their characteristics, rather than by trying to affix a dhapur name that even in Jawa itself, as applied to a Javanese blade, many people will have differing opinions on.

31st August 2008, 09:12 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I think maybe it has already disappeared Henk. It probably doesn't matter a great deal if collectors in Holland or collectors in US, or collectors in Australia use Javanese names to describe a dhapur or pamor, or ricikan---as you say the person you're talking to knows what you mean. For that matter you could use Dutch, or English or any other language, they'd all serve the same purpose of conveying an idea from one person to another. However, the whole problem with this name game of dhapur and pamor is that there is only one name that is correct, and that is only correct according to the pakem that defines it, and within the cultural framework that produced the pakem. Move 40 miles down the road and the rules change. To be honest, I gave up on dhapur and pamor names maybe 30 years ago. As soon as I realised that people in different keris study groups and different cultural alignments in Jawa itself cannot agree over a lot of the supposedly "correct" names, I asked myself why I, a bule with no affiliation with any keris study group, or any Javanese cultural group, should bother to be too pedantic about which is the supposedly "correct" name, and which is not. Yes, I tend towards the parameters set by Surakarta, but that it a tendency, it is not iron-bound. Yes, many of the common forms and motifs will have the same name in various places, but I once listened to a debate between two ---or maybe three--- very respected ahli keris as to what the correct ricikan for a particular dhapur--- I think it was Anoman--- were. It went on interminably, it amounted to no more than opinion, and it left one of these gentlemen fuming and frothing at the mouth.There was no resolution.All concerned went away believing he was correct and the others were uneducated fools. I don't think we can use Javanese names for many, if not most keris from places outside Jawa, because even though a Balinese keris might be close to a particular Javanese dhapur, it will probably vary in some minor detail, and in any case, the pawakan is wrong before you go anywhere. Then you need to ask yourself which Javanese pakem you're using. In my opinion it is better to describe any but the most simple keris forms in terms of their characteristics, rather than by trying to affix a dhapur name that even in Jawa itself, as applied to a Javanese blade, many people will have differing opinions on.