[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Congratuations Gav. I am glad that you finally got the "expert" assessment that you have been wanting on this piece. Funny thing about "experts"....if we look long enough we will always be able to find one that will tell us what we want to hear. I am not trying to say that you latest "expert" is not absolutely correct. He may well be. Personally i know nothing about these knives and to me it looks quite nice. But as someone who has spent a lot of time collecting and learning about keris i have discovered that things are not always what they appear to be and sometimes people deliberately create things to deceive. Not necessarily the case here, but always a possibility.
Many of the people on this forum who have taken the time to try to answer your questions about this piece have a great deal of combined knowledge about these knives. Some have made it their specialty. Doesn't mean they are right about your kindjal either, but they didn't have to respond to your post, they have done so with good will in the spirit of collecting and sharing knowledge. You might do youself well not to alienate an entire community of knowledgeable collectors just because you found an expert who told you what you wanted to hear.

Hi David,

Thank you for your posting, I whole heartedly agree about things never appearing what they seems to be and that a lot of items are being created to fool the unwarey, we all at one time or another have been bitten by these deceivers, I too have knowingly passed on goods of very questionable backgrounds that I known not to be the real deal to experts who had to have the item, heck I know, I made the damn thing and they even went to to the trouble of telling me the whole history of the type of item in question but, this is not a reflection of who I am or what I do. How does one talk an expert out of what he wants so dearly.
I know I have been collecting since a boy and weapons for the last 12 years or so. Although I don't have millions to spend on such toys that I desire but like so many here I know a good deal more than most and I too have handled vast amounts of all styles of edged weapons in some very fine collections and at every arms far for much longer than the 12 years, not that this should be taken in an arogant manner either, these weapons are a passion of mine, not something that I want a pat on the back for as mentioned elsewhere.
It is disturbing for me that those who are considered both by myself, others here and themselves as experts, should be able to offer up a little more than links to others webpages and shrug off this piece as a fake, although there have been others with very good points and posting made with reasons stated, which is most important to everyone concerned viewing these threads as it is the only way for everyone, including themselves to learn further.
The straight out calling this piece a fake or poor quality is of little concern to me, if it is, it is, that is fine and cannot be changed....but what you say about possibly alienating myself from these people because I heard what I wanted to hear from another, should not put others offside, as humans we all continue to learn and if we think we know it all the learning has stopped. I have offered up images from myself and opinions of others who are very successful in their fields and it is their livelyhood too. By placing these things back on the table so to speak in this forum I would hope others here will continue to offer up images and real facts and reference points to enhance the learning process by all and debunk what more I have offered up...
Thanks again for your interest in this thread.

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

"The well known antique jeweller and watch maker"

Tell me Gav did you ask this expert how many kindjal has he handled in his career? I have an old gentleman down the street from where I work who is also an expert jeweler and watch maker since 1940 but I don't think he knows much about kindjals? I would not ask a dentist to give me his opinion on my cardiogram I would seek out a cardiologist.

Lew

Hi Lew, it was not the Kindjal that I took it there for, it was from the advise of Alex that I did so and I took it to a European born family of jewellers for further interest. These guys like your jeweller Lew, do certainly known about quality workmanship, age and styles through all mediums I would think, if not they have just lucked their way through life.

Originally Posted by fernando

When you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat . On the other hand, a certain person may be able to grade a determined silver work, from simply stamped to thouroughly chased, whereas not necessarily knowing how to grade a kinzhal per se .
... Just my humble opinnion, Lew.
Fernando

Thanks for the proverb Fernando, so true, I should have looked below before replying but am doing so in order of postings, thanks.

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Fernando

I am sure there are modern silversmiths who do masterful work but you need to look at the object as a whole and not through a jewelers lupe.

Lew

Thanks Lew, it was as a whole it was studied, and studied closely.

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hello,
My initial reaction to the 'Kindjal' posts was not to get involved in something I was not familiar with nor to get involved in the subsequent "toing and froing". I do feel, although this may alienate me from some of the Forum, that the entire tone of this debate was set at the very beginning of the first post with a less than necessary remark with regard to the skill level of the Kindjal maker. It seems to me only polite and courteous to give your opinion in a gracious and friendly manner in the knowledge that the recipient has spent good money and may be in some occasions without the necessary knowledge to fully understand what they have purchased good or not so good, after all that is why they have posted in the first place, to accrue the knowledge to facilitate their collecting bug. I am always disappointed when short one sentence answers are given, usually negative, without the courtesy of a Dear so and so, Hi so and so etc., and are finished without a Regards so and so etc. Having said all this I am grateful for the knowledge base present in this Forum I just wish those with a greater degree of this knowledge would be a bit more tolerant of folks with more run of the mill aspirations with regard to their collections, after all most of us have fiscal constraints that preclude us from purchasing bits with the 'wow factor' although we may turn up with one occasionally with luck and a bit of that 'Knowledge'. This reply is aimed at no one in particular and everyone in general. Please remember most of us do this for pleasure and not for gain and our communication with each other should be pleasurable also, even if the opinion given is not what the recipient would prefer to hear but an honest answer given honestly but always with courtesy.
Regards,
Norman.

Extremely well spoken Norman with great courtesy. I can appreciate not everyone can or will communicate in the manner that many are acustomed, that is fine, I still have trouble though, listening to those who make debunking comments without offering up a "well see that there Gav, in year blah blah the standard for that was this and that feature there was not found until date so and so and so on and so forth, links provided are not as clear in many cases as the images I have provided and at no where near the light or magnification so i think some elements of those presented have been lost but I am not a photographer, but I do take photographs so I can comment at some level.
I still ask to see comparrisions in collections of those who have passed comment either good or bad to point and out the where fors and why fors as to why this piece in question is what some think it is from the images, but I think the alienation excuse may be quietly reserved for not doing so.

Originally Posted by TVV

For myself, I have always thought that every time I post an item for discussion in this forum and ask for opinion from the other members here, I have to be willing to accept or at least consider their comments, even if said comments may not be what I have hoped to read for the item in question. If I am unwilling to consider any opinion different from my own, why even bother posting here and asking, unless I am merely looking for a pat on the back?
Regards,
Teodor

All comments are accepted and noted, the problem lays with no reply to the debunking images and questions that I have posted, it seems the learning stops dead because of that. Are we all expected to hear "that's no good" and that's the end of it? All comments are considered, processed and replied to with a wishing to know more about their reasons why rather than a I know so or I feel. Sure feeling has a lot to do with anything we do in this world but facts support or debunk facts and without facts there is no knowledge of anything.

Thank you everyone for your interest in this posting, unfortunately I am out of time for now and will address each and every other response tomorrow night. Please in the mean time if so inclined cover off a few of the other questions I have offered up like the UV light and the further images in relation to the comments made, it is the only was to learn and move foward. If after all possible knowldege has been exhausted and it turns out to be a late made piece i will as always be happy to acknowledge the fact, I do hope those who dismiss it with out fulling viewing all that is offered up would in turn acknowledge that they too have learnt something from the postings, if and when it is varified as authentic again further down the track.

very best regards

Gav