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A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2007, 05:10 AM

Pak Ganja, I would not say that mixing myth, legend, and history is a bad thing.

But I would say that it is something that a person who is unfamiliar with Javanese culture might find to be very confusing.

You are right of course:- when we discuss the keris it is inevitable that myth and legend will creep into our discussion; this is a part of keris culture. In Jawa some people will accept all the myth, all the legend as equal with supportable historic fact; others will not. But when we present myth and legend mixed with history to people who are outside Javanese culture, they have no frame of reference, and they can become very confused.

I agree totally with you:- the learning of language is more than the learning of a vocab and grammar. We need the body language, the mannerisms, in fact we need to change the way in which we think, when we attempt to communicate in a language other than our mother tongue. Sometimes we are successful, other times we are not. However, one thing is certain:- we usually need to moderate our native forms of expression and our native body language, and our native mannerisms , or it will not be long before nobody wants to talk to us, no matter how perfectly we can use the adopted language.If we do not understand the culture of a society, we simply cannot communicate effectively.

Similarly, the way in which Javanese people use their own language, with twists and turns and skillful manipulation, is in itself an art form, but it is an art form that is often totally incomprehensible to an outsider--- I do not mean just a non-native speaker of Javanese, I mean anybody outside the group who can be expected to understand the particular art of language being employed.

Pak Ganja, you are in an almost unique position:- you are an educated man who is also familiar on the deepest level with Javanese culture and society, moreover, you are prepared to talk more or less openly with a whole bunch of ignorant bules.

Please consider how much you have to offer, and whether you are doing yourself a favour, not to mention Javanese culture, by failing to present your knowledge in the most easily understood fashion.

20th November 2007, 05:10 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Pak Ganja, I would not say that mixing myth, legend, and history is a bad thing. But I would say that it is something that a person who is unfamiliar with Javanese culture might find to be very confusing. You are right of course:- when we discuss the keris it is inevitable that myth and legend will creep into our discussion; this is a part of keris culture. In Jawa some people will accept all the myth, all the legend as equal with supportable historic fact; others will not. But when we present myth and legend mixed with history to people who are outside Javanese culture, they have no frame of reference, and they can become very confused. I agree totally with you:- the learning of language is more than the learning of a vocab and grammar. We need the body language, the mannerisms, in fact we need to change the way in which we think, when we attempt to communicate in a language other than our mother tongue. Sometimes we are successful, other times we are not. However, one thing is certain:- we usually need to moderate our native forms of expression and our native body language, and our native mannerisms , or it will not be long before nobody wants to talk to us, no matter how perfectly we can use the adopted language.If we do not understand the culture of a society, we simply cannot communicate effectively. Similarly, the way in which Javanese people use their own language, with twists and turns and skillful manipulation, is in itself an art form, but it is an art form that is often totally incomprehensible to an outsider--- I do not mean just a non-native speaker of Javanese, I mean anybody outside the group who can be expected to understand the particular art of language being employed. Pak Ganja, you are in an almost unique position:- you are an educated man who is also familiar on the deepest level with Javanese culture and society, moreover, you are prepared to talk more or less openly with a whole bunch of ignorant bules. Please consider how much you have to offer, and whether you are doing yourself a favour, not to mention Javanese culture, by failing to present your knowledge in the most easily understood fashion.