Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - ID for Ancient Kujang / Kudi? Hindu /Siam/Persian influence?

doecon · 10th May 2006, 07:26 AM

Quote

“ No current tools or weapons are made of similar form nor material.

The texture, colour and general presentation of the iron in the item shown in the photo appears to be correct for this class of archaic object. “

Thank you A. G. Maisey

It saves a lot of time, not having to explain why it’s indeed an ancient object. (again I hope). I understand (some of) the skepticism on the board, but it’s a complete waste of energy to go trough “prove-that-this-is-real-procedure” , before getting to the point of discussing the item itself. On top of that I think I have been reasonably enough to indicate that its 1000yrs with a 300r margin.

Maybe we can move on to the features of the tool/weapon.

Pangeran Datu , regarding the rectangular tang; Early versions of the keris (Keris budha) have a similar tang. Some believe (forgot where I found that) that the earlier shape tang indicated that it wasn’t originally used as a trusting weapon, but more as a slash and cut weapon (borabodur shows some relief where the keris is held in an upper arm grip as well). So the square tang kept the blade from turning in his hilt when the goal was hit.

There are indeed big differences with the Kujang and Kudi. However there is still the possibility that these to variations have been developed from this shape. As var as I know they are both considered later versions of what was a farming tool before. On top of that this one is found in east, not in west, java.

But then again, this item doesn’t seem “handy” for farming at all. As mentioned its to heavy for cutting grass or harvesting rice, plus the length itself (tang 4” without hilt) would make it hard to handle.

As Neshech already asked, at the Sukuh relief the blades (except the one held by Bima) are indeed not hold or handled, the relief represents partly a smith workplace, the blades are in the background (see picture above). Durga statues however (9-11th c east and middle java) do show her holding weapons in one of her 6-8 arms. Among more easily recognizable chakras, fly whisks and other weapons, she sometimes holds a weapon that looks similar (a bit).

Other point is that Sukuh (14th/15th C) is middle java and item is of east java origin (and probably different time). Around the 10th and 11th century there were (trade) relations between the eastjava kingdoms and Persia, Siam and India. Therefore I was hoping to see some similar blades in these cultures around this time.

In case some of you are seriously interested, I will make a more detailed (photo) study of the blades on the relief and statues and publish it here in a few weeks. Unlike Neshech I can fund myself (just kidding

.

I understand that Candi Sukuh and Durga statues have a religious value for some, by using these for study reference I don’t intend to disrespect any belief or faith.

For BI, I don’t know what cultural learning curve your pointing at. In case you are assuming anything related to my culture, then please don’t, since you have probably no clue what my cultural background is.

10th May 2006, 07:26 AM	#19
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Quote “ No current tools or weapons are made of similar form nor material. The texture, colour and general presentation of the iron in the item shown in the photo appears to be correct for this class of archaic object. “ Thank you A. G. Maisey It saves a lot of time, not having to explain why it’s indeed an ancient object. (again I hope). I understand (some of) the skepticism on the board, but it’s a complete waste of energy to go trough “prove-that-this-is-real-procedure” , before getting to the point of discussing the item itself. On top of that I think I have been reasonably enough to indicate that its 1000yrs with a 300r margin. Maybe we can move on to the features of the tool/weapon. Pangeran Datu , regarding the rectangular tang; Early versions of the keris (Keris budha) have a similar tang. Some believe (forgot where I found that) that the earlier shape tang indicated that it wasn’t originally used as a trusting weapon, but more as a slash and cut weapon (borabodur shows some relief where the keris is held in an upper arm grip as well). So the square tang kept the blade from turning in his hilt when the goal was hit. There are indeed big differences with the Kujang and Kudi. However there is still the possibility that these to variations have been developed from this shape. As var as I know they are both considered later versions of what was a farming tool before. On top of that this one is found in east, not in west, java. But then again, this item doesn’t seem “handy” for farming at all. As mentioned its to heavy for cutting grass or harvesting rice, plus the length itself (tang 4” without hilt) would make it hard to handle. As Neshech already asked, at the Sukuh relief the blades (except the one held by Bima) are indeed not hold or handled, the relief represents partly a smith workplace, the blades are in the background (see picture above). Durga statues however (9-11th c east and middle java) do show her holding weapons in one of her 6-8 arms. Among more easily recognizable chakras, fly whisks and other weapons, she sometimes holds a weapon that looks similar (a bit). Other point is that Sukuh (14th/15th C) is middle java and item is of east java origin (and probably different time). Around the 10th and 11th century there were (trade) relations between the eastjava kingdoms and Persia, Siam and India. Therefore I was hoping to see some similar blades in these cultures around this time. In case some of you are seriously interested, I will make a more detailed (photo) study of the blades on the relief and statues and publish it here in a few weeks. Unlike Neshech I can fund myself (just kidding. I understand that Candi Sukuh and Durga statues have a religious value for some, by using these for study reference I don’t intend to disrespect any belief or faith. For BI, I don’t know what cultural learning curve your pointing at. In case you are assuming anything related to my culture, then please don’t, since you have probably no clue what my cultural background is.