Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2015, 05:12 PM

What Jens is saying is that his intention (and original question) concerns looking into the 'development' of the katar as a unique weapon form, and had initiated this ajenda with references to the triangular shaped blade with transverse handle of 10th century.

It has long been agreed that the katar is unique, apparently to the Indian subcontinent but has remained a bit of a conundrum among arms scholars and collectors consistently from the earliest references.

It is not just the 'name', which is technically 'jamadhar', but became transfixed to 'katar' through an apparent slip in Egerton (as told in Pant, "Indian Arms and Armor", Lahore, 1980) . As the term had become colloquially entrenched as katar, it served no real purpose to further confuse matters by revision, though the case is well known to most who deeply study these arms.

While these panoplies of images are of course well intended, and serve well on the theme "beauty of the katar" and well illustrate the wide variations which have evolved over the centuries, it does not attend to the theme here.
A picture is of course wonderful, and clearly shows the magnificence which exists in the often maligned 'coffee table books', but regardless of the either limited or sometimes non existant captioning, loses importance from an informational aspect .

I agree in that it is hard to discuss and detail observations on singular examples among large bodies of images, so it increases the chances of misunderstanding considerably, a problem often present in these venues as it is.

This is such a great discussion and thread, and the participation is fantastic!!! I hope we can get back to the focus on 'development' and find some clues from some of the great iconography pictured among the entered.
The focus on 'Tanjore' form is entirely valid, and goes to the origin of the katar in the south.....the gauntlet hand covering goes to the later development of the pata.

So the questions remain:
What happened after the transverse handle was placed on an apparent slashing blade in around the 10th century?

What brought the movement of these curiously configured daggers into other areas of the subcontinent from their apparent southerly origins, and when did this transpire?

The southern forms appear to have remained a 'slashing' form, as was the favored use of edged weapons there......was it only in the north where the armor piercing support was added to the blade?

While the blades of katars seem to have native origin, it seems there became large numbers which carry European blades from cut down swords.
When did this begin? and where?

By no means do I mean to discount the amazing entries here with so many wonderful photos of these daggers, but very much hope to exact the continued participation along the original topic Thank you so much guys!!!

27th September 2015, 05:12 PM	#55
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	What Jens is saying is that his intention (and original question) concerns looking into the 'development' of the katar as a unique weapon form, and had initiated this ajenda with references to the triangular shaped blade with transverse handle of 10th century. It has long been agreed that the katar is unique, apparently to the Indian subcontinent but has remained a bit of a conundrum among arms scholars and collectors consistently from the earliest references. It is not just the 'name', which is technically 'jamadhar', but became transfixed to 'katar' through an apparent slip in Egerton (as told in Pant, "Indian Arms and Armor", Lahore, 1980) . As the term had become colloquially entrenched as katar, it served no real purpose to further confuse matters by revision, though the case is well known to most who deeply study these arms. While these panoplies of images are of course well intended, and serve well on the theme "beauty of the katar" and well illustrate the wide variations which have evolved over the centuries, it does not attend to the theme here. A picture is of course wonderful, and clearly shows the magnificence which exists in the often maligned 'coffee table books', but regardless of the either limited or sometimes non existant captioning, loses importance from an informational aspect . I agree in that it is hard to discuss and detail observations on singular examples among large bodies of images, so it increases the chances of misunderstanding considerably, a problem often present in these venues as it is. This is such a great discussion and thread, and the participation is fantastic!!! I hope we can get back to the focus on 'development' and find some clues from some of the great iconography pictured among the entered. The focus on 'Tanjore' form is entirely valid, and goes to the origin of the katar in the south.....the gauntlet hand covering goes to the later development of the pata. So the questions remain: What happened after the transverse handle was placed on an apparent slashing blade in around the 10th century? What brought the movement of these curiously configured daggers into other areas of the subcontinent from their apparent southerly origins, and when did this transpire? The southern forms appear to have remained a 'slashing' form, as was the favored use of edged weapons there......was it only in the north where the armor piercing support was added to the blade? While the blades of katars seem to have native origin, it seems there became large numbers which carry European blades from cut down swords. When did this begin? and where? By no means do I mean to discount the amazing entries here with so many wonderful photos of these daggers, but very much hope to exact the continued participation along the original topic Thank you so much guys!!!