Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Rivkin · 9th December 2005, 05:16 AM

I did not find any kindjal like this in Astvatsaturjan or in my archives of ebay. Obviously I lack skills and knowledge to classify kindjals with great precision. My classification was based upon: the ornament, as you said, is not very dense. it is in circassian style, but definitely not circassian. It is also dissimilar to all examples (and here by knowledge is very limited) that I've seen, but the gut feeling would be towards eclectic Georgian origin.

I can not contest your identification (because I can not show a georgian kindjal like this, and frankly my idea of its origins is rather vague). But I can definitely contest the "Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello. "

Narts are common for all northern caucasian nations. In my humble opinion, in the same time the chechen and circassian versions are the _most_ dissimilar to one another... They are dissimilar to the point that vocabularies used to quote for nart "in chechen and ingush myths - monster...".
Dumezil attributes narts in chechen myths specifically to osethian-chechen conflicts and interactions. The origin of narts is dark and unknown. Once, iranian and greek myths were thought to be the origin, but now, on the contrary, narts are thought by many to be older than most greek myths. At the same time, chechens are also one of the least nart-influenced nations. Christians, sun and fire-woshippers, but never I heard related to ancient chechens xabzeists or nartists. Clans that descend from Circassians do exist, but in the numbers that are way smaller than that of gurj, rusi, or even zhukty.
Culturally I would say they are also way more similar to avars and dagestanians (starting with vainakh language), than to Kabarda or Abaz. I find it hard to believe that their alliance with avars and Shamil can be attributed to georgaphy.

9th December 2005, 05:16 AM	#27
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I did not find any kindjal like this in Astvatsaturjan or in my archives of ebay. Obviously I lack skills and knowledge to classify kindjals with great precision. My classification was based upon: the ornament, as you said, is not very dense. it is in circassian style, but definitely not circassian. It is also dissimilar to all examples (and here by knowledge is very limited) that I've seen, but the gut feeling would be towards eclectic Georgian origin. I can not contest your identification (because I can not show a georgian kindjal like this, and frankly my idea of its origins is rather vague). But I can definitely contest the "Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello. " Narts are common for all northern caucasian nations. In my humble opinion, in the same time the chechen and circassian versions are the _most_ dissimilar to one another... They are dissimilar to the point that vocabularies used to quote for nart "in chechen and ingush myths - monster...". Dumezil attributes narts in chechen myths specifically to osethian-chechen conflicts and interactions. The origin of narts is dark and unknown. Once, iranian and greek myths were thought to be the origin, but now, on the contrary, narts are thought by many to be older than most greek myths. At the same time, chechens are also one of the least nart-influenced nations. Christians, sun and fire-woshippers, but never I heard related to ancient chechens xabzeists or nartists. Clans that descend from Circassians do exist, but in the numbers that are way smaller than that of gurj, rusi, or even zhukty. Culturally I would say they are also way more similar to avars and dagestanians (starting with vainakh language), than to Kabarda or Abaz. I find it hard to believe that their alliance with avars and Shamil can be attributed to georgaphy.