Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Ian · 31st December 2014, 05:23 AM

Hi Detlef:

I am fairly certain that sinampalok and dinahong palay are Tagalog in origin, and I cannot find either of those terms in two online Bicolano-English dictionaries. The word ginunting is also Tagalog; it means "resembling scissors" or "resembling shears" with the grammatical construction being similar to the other two terms (gunting meaning "scissors" or "shears"). The only term for which I am unable to find a Tagalog translation is minasbad and it could be an old Bicolano word although it does not appear in the online Bicolano dictionaries. We need help from a native Bicolano to sort that out.

As far as drawing conclusions based on the hilt style (as defined for the minasbad) that we think is associated with Camarines sur and saying this is limited to the Bicol Region, that is a big extrapolation based on the available data. I think you would agree that the distribution of this hilt style is unknown. Based on the available data, the aso hilt could be limited to just the Camarines sur or it could extend more widely in the Bicol Region and even beyond to, say, the eastern Visayas (Samar, Leyte, Cebu). Indeed, the sword shown in post #16 of the thread you reference could easily be classified as a Visayan pinuti or sansibar with its long narrow pointed blade, chisel edge, and blind tang construction.

Based on the evidence gathered to date, it seems to me that the most we can say about edged weapons/tools having an aso hilt or exhibiting the minasbad style of sword is that these are consistent with examples coming from Camarines sur, and might be found more widely in other areas of the Bicol Region or in nearby areas of the Visayas. There may even be overlap of these weapons/tools to the north of Bicol in traditional Tagalog areas.

The usual way to research these questions is to read historical documents, scholarly accounts, the writings of travelers in previous centuries, and search out contemporary local sources. For various reasons we are having problems finding those resources. I think the way forward is, to coin an American term, to have boots on the ground. And not just anybody doing the investigation. It needs experienced investigators working with local informants. As my anthropology colleagues frequently tell me, "half of what informants report is wrong and the other half is misleading"--take what you are told with a grain of salt and verify everything using as many sources as possible.

Such investigation takes time and money. Fortunately, I will soon have time to do some of this work because I am retiring today! The money, however, may be a limiting factor (as well as my wife

). The Bicol region is not high on my list of places to visit, but I hope to get there in the next 3-5 years.

Cheers,

Ian.

31st December 2014, 05:23 AM	#21
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Hi Detlef: I am fairly certain that sinampalok and dinahong palay are Tagalog in origin, and I cannot find either of those terms in two online Bicolano-English dictionaries. The word ginunting is also Tagalog; it means "resembling scissors" or "resembling shears" with the grammatical construction being similar to the other two terms (gunting meaning "scissors" or "shears"). The only term for which I am unable to find a Tagalog translation is minasbad and it could be an old Bicolano word although it does not appear in the online Bicolano dictionaries. We need help from a native Bicolano to sort that out. As far as drawing conclusions based on the hilt style (as defined for the minasbad) that we think is associated with Camarines sur and saying this is limited to the Bicol Region, that is a big extrapolation based on the available data. I think you would agree that the distribution of this hilt style is unknown. Based on the available data, the aso hilt could be limited to just the Camarines sur or it could extend more widely in the Bicol Region and even beyond to, say, the eastern Visayas (Samar, Leyte, Cebu). Indeed, the sword shown in post #16 of the thread you reference could easily be classified as a Visayan pinuti or sansibar with its long narrow pointed blade, chisel edge, and blind tang construction. Based on the evidence gathered to date, it seems to me that the most we can say about edged weapons/tools having an aso hilt or exhibiting the minasbad style of sword is that these are consistent with examples coming from Camarines sur, and might be found more widely in other areas of the Bicol Region or in nearby areas of the Visayas. There may even be overlap of these weapons/tools to the north of Bicol in traditional Tagalog areas. The usual way to research these questions is to read historical documents, scholarly accounts, the writings of travelers in previous centuries, and search out contemporary local sources. For various reasons we are having problems finding those resources. I think the way forward is, to coin an American term, to have boots on the ground. And not just anybody doing the investigation. It needs experienced investigators working with local informants. As my anthropology colleagues frequently tell me, "half of what informants report is wrong and the other half is misleading"--take what you are told with a grain of salt and verify everything using as many sources as possible. Such investigation takes time and money. Fortunately, I will soon have time to do some of this work because I am retiring today! The money, however, may be a limiting factor (as well as my wife). The Bicol region is not high on my list of places to visit, but I hope to get there in the next 3-5 years. Cheers, Ian. Last edited by Ian; 31st December 2014 at 05:41 AM.