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Originally Posted by erlikhan
Ah got it now. Like Sabetaists (donme) in Turkey. Anyway, if you think the sword has not much to do with them, then let's put point to the ethnical side of the subject as I 've learned continuing ethnical conversations in the forum mean increasing potential of unexpected trouble  . |
I do not think we shoud shy away from these discissions as long as they are helpful to the educational purpose of the Forum in terms of weapon/military discussions and do not degenerate into nationalistic/racist accusations.
Karaim and Donmeh are two different stories altogether.
Karaim are a purely Judaic sect that believes only in the written Torah (Pentateuch) and rejects later books and Rabbinical authorities such as Talmud (G'mara). Their ethnic origin is obscure. Some claim purely Jewish roots and their Turkic language a reflection of the point of their spread from the Crimea where they lived next door to the Tatars. Others suggest their descent from the Khazars (Turkic tribes living north of the Caspian and Black Seas) that converted to Judaism sometimes in the 9-10th century and spread west to Crimea and subsequently to Poland/Lithuania or east to North Caucasus (Tats, Nogais, Karachai etc). In both localities they maintained very militaristic way of life (see Trakai Castle in Lithuania). The Khazar origin is dubious because Karaim were present in medieval Spain in 10-11th centuries. Nevertheless, they were viewed as non-Jews by the Westerners to the point that Russian Tsars were very protective of them and the Nazis did not touch them at all.
Donmeh are the descendants of the real Jews: the followers of Sabbetai Zvi, a 17th century Jew who proclaimed himself a Messiah but converted to Islam as soon as the Ottoman Sultan offered him a choice between that and immediate decapitation. Donmeh in Turkey never were militarily oriented and stuck to trade/crafts. By the way, they supported Ataturk and that gave a ground to his enemies to claim that his mother must have been Jewish ("Not Mustafa, not Kemal and not even a Turk").
As Rivkin pointed out, the Royal Georgian Bagratid dynasty (Batonishvilis) claimed descent from a man named Smbat who was allegedly a leader of the Jews brought to the Caucasus (Armenia, mainly) by the Babylonians in 6th century BCE, after the destruction of the First Temple (the original Lost Tribes). True or not is unknown as the equally aristocratic Orbelianis claimed Chinese descent and Abashidzes, Abyssinian.
I went into this historical digression simply because it is impossible to understand the history of weapons without knowing the history of men who carried them. Quick example: ancient Kievan Russians carried typically Viking swords but their armour had major "Tatar" influence. Only by knowing that the Vikings were the earliest rulers of the Rus and that Kiev was established by the Khazars (Ki-ev means "place by the water" in Tats language) can we understand this strange and beautiful mix.