Originally Posted by napoleon
salaams ibrahiim,firstly im not intent on telling people how they should research,not at all ,what i was trying to establish,was known provenanced items,if enough examples can be gathered,might begin to show a broad frame work,starting for the sake of arguement with known portugese examples of the period,already been said i know,but does anyone have any?
also yes point taken jim regarding debate/discusion stand corrected thank you,ibrahiim you refer to the examples plucked at random
not at all just the only two examples i could find that stood a chance, speaking demonstrably,but as jim pointed out could be earlier(although not later)
so could still be used in a broader framework, ibrahiim i do see a gap in the study its called typological chronology
,however bear in mind i am a relative novice in the subject of these beautifull swords,but one thought i had was the gemstones used,certain cultures favour different gems,a possible pointer?although i still feel more examples are needed,and in order for any of us to learn more more images,another thought has anyone explored the archeological record of sri lanka for swords,battle site finds? regards for now
Salaams napoleon. As you rightly point out we have very little to go on... Early examples are few 'n far between and this is illustrated by the need to look at even the most extreme cases such as artwork on the Popham Armour (to my mind the only artwork showing the Kastane on European armour) and a vague but fascinating early weapon now in the Sendai Museum in Japan.
Where we can... I think broad logic is allowed e.g. an eye to the European influence and since it is a weapon just slightly removed from the Arabian sphere...a clue as to how it may have arrived in basic form with the Moors...and of course their Arabian and African (and other regional) contacts. Knowing a lot more about the Royal workshops and the religious structure and the way people lived in the early days allows some balanced supposition...Where these nebulous ideas are not carved in stone it can be interesting to see where these ideas lead...though, a good detective will only have these penciled in the margin until proof positive can be made.
I was pleased to see you wheel out the big guns: Typological Chronology
but that depends on examinig the early items, simply not available... The subject of digs is interesting ... but as you may be aware there are certain sensitivities in this regard and anyway you will be aware of cultural problems where Buddhist/ Hindu countries are very much not obliged to excavate and for religious reasons etc...The archeological ministry in Tibet for example is a very small organism... in fact it doesn't exist! and though I am not saying archeology is non existant in Sri Lanka I make the point from the cultural understanding generally... and of course you will be aware of the delicate nature of digs not unrelated to recent internal strife in that country but which is politically ringfenced.
What you have outlined is in fact very true... that unless a researcher is in country how difficult it is (but not impossible) to unearth the facts. When we started we had so little to go on... Now the library contains masses of detail never before viewed.
I think the study of gemstones is an excellent idea for you to undertake regarding Kastane ... another which I disguarded was the detail contained in ancient poetry which could yeild results.
One other field that looked promising was ancient martial arts weapons but I was unable to get sufficient detail as persuing that back 500 years and beyond proved impossible .. We know that the national martial art system was made illegal by colonial English powers punishable by being shot in the knees..Permanently crippling the individuals...The martial arts weaponry pre Portuguese (Pre 1505) may well have contained Kastane but absolute proof would be needed. Naturally that would be more or less game set and match regarding the time frame but I couldn't get much further back than about 1800 in this regard.
The VOC system is being viewed very successfully in another thread effectively setting down a thorough compendium of details on the entire Dutch period ...
Overall I think the rolling result... (because it never stops)... is excellent, though, we should never expect to fully hit the check-mate button... Total understanding may never be complete but I mean why should it?...since this is such a non worldly item drenched in mythology, religions, sliced with foreign powers interference and tainted in not a little majic ... not least in it's name "Kastane".
Thank you for your post...Typological Chronology ! Bring it on !!
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.