[Maurice]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent.
This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences.
It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify.

I agree concerning the English language. For me it's also not that simple and often I need a translationprogramm on my computer, just as many of us.
The misreading, however, could also happen to native speakers of English mutually, as sometimes the accent or tone could be interpretated different, as if one should talk to eachother face to face and you can see the expressions and accents in combination with the bodylanguage, which is lacking in a forum.
I do appreciate you're trying to clarify some misunderstandings, which are certainly slipped in accidentally.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century.
The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people.

You're right that Lombok was not interesting for the Dutch in the early VOC times, and that the interferences began in times of the "betrayel of Lombok", in 1894.
Though the Dutch surely were present often in the fairways (if that's the correct word) near Lombok.
Probably I shouldn't brought that up in my earlier comment, as it indeed seems to be not relevant here in the discussion of the sword (pedang) discussed here.
If you look at it the way you explained here, I now understand there's no connection known between the Sumatran people and the Sasak people whatso ever in history.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion.
Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate.

It seems that these kind of swords, as Michael allready mentioned in a previous comment, show up in several area's.
This without knowing what all the connections could be between those area's, and why this partically sword shows up in such many different places.
For instance Banks mentions a similar one in an article, where he mentioned it to be used by Sea dayaks, and he named it in that article "Senangkas".

Could you explain to me who "Djelengga" is?
Forgive my ignorance, but when searching in this forum, I noticed only you mentioned this man a few times, and at any time there's no forummember who asked you who he is.
Probably they all know who he is, and I somehow am not familiar with him, so a short explanation would help for me.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's.

I know about the particular markets you're referring. I've seen their "work" for hours on the tv, as they're acquaintances of a friendcollector of mine who hang out with them a couple of times a year.
And I appreciate you're experience and it's of great value sharing it in this thread.
Concerning the pedang we're discussing here, there's a part which still has the old patina over the silverwork bedause it probably wasn't cleaned that well on that area as on the rest of the blade, as I mentioned before. And for my experiences with cleaning mandau blades with lots of silver or brass inlay, I know that I can clean it easily till the brass and silverwork shine like new, and the blade itself is showing the same patination as before, just by using a dishsoap and a scourer.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done.

I know about embellishment of stuff which doesn't sell. But writing this sword down as badly damaged and extremely difficult to find a buyer for, sounds very strange to me. But again, everybody could have his own oppinion of collecting and I respect that in this forum!
I think that here we have the clear difference between keris collectors and the tribal sword collectors in general.
For a keris collector things have to be perfect, and they don't mind throwing away old dresses of kerisses and change them for new ones made on the one of the markets you mentioned above. Also handles from same regions are changing, just to make it more beautifull and it almost seemed to be accepted by most of the keris collectors.
For antique tribal sword collectors like me, we see beauty in old swords, preferably in original condition. When speaking for myself I like the old damages, IF they are old and not recently made by imprudence by previous owners.
According the pedang here in question: For example there had been mentioned these were brought a sackfull by Lombok dealers in Detlefs comment (he refers to a another vikingswordforum link).
Why wheren't those swords heavily decorated with texts, or where they? Because they look prettier as this one? I really don't understand that, to make such efforts of labour, if there were probably numerous in the antiqueshops in certain times. Is this one so bad that they needed to write it full from all sides with texts to make it salable?
With this particular sword it doesn't make sense to me at all, when comparing it with other pedangs I've seen which look a lot worse and were not written down with all kind of decorations and/or texts.
My opinion is that this sword with it's beautifully carved handle, and a beautifully smooth blade with two nice fullers didn't need to get written such extensively to get sold or wanted.
But again, that's mine opinion.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about.
I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent.

OK, I can understand that as they are not your swords, and it would be inpropriate to post images here.
But what I think is very strange here is that nobody is able to depict images of swords with the same comparitively inlay, even on other swords as pedangs.
I would say if it was done on the Javanese markets since at least the 1950's to get them better salable, there would be numerous of these and there would be somebody who could attach images here, wouldn't it?
Till I've not seen any images to compare them, I will not take it for granted this is probably very recent work. That's the nature of the beast (if it's translated correctly from a Dutch saying).
And don't get me wrong, I don't doubt you're knowledge Alan. But I also don't doubt my own findings, and I need proofs from articles, museums, comparison pieces to make my own "common sense" result...

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century.

Alan, don't apologize, as everybody has his own opinion and everybody is free to discuss here, within the forum rules.
Also I really appreciate that, with your experience during all those years of studying and collecting kerisses, you're involved in this thread and share your findings.
I know a lot of "senior" collectors, and some of them collect and study even much longer as 30 years and are more the "quiet" collectors, and not participating on forums, though they are lurking once in a while.
With this group I have lots of very nice contact, and we discuss swords through email, or when I visit them a few times a year we go through their collection, which is great to exchange knowledge and compare pieces with eachother.
Most of the swords they collect have great provenance, or were bought in the very early days from people who inherited the pieces from relatives who directly brought them back as war trophies from concerning area.
Those are the swords to research (besides provenanced museumpieces) and not the ones that are/were sold in Indonesian antiqueshops (forgive me if I am offending somebody here, but this is my opinion).
Also as a "non professional", and a relatively young collector, I may be proud to say that I learned a lot in short time, and did some comprehensive research projects, which I did with help of Dutch museums and its curators, and the senior collectors/researchers I mentioned.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.

Alan, feel free to discuss!
We're all here to learn from eachother.
In discussions all opinions are never equal, otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion and nothing will be learnt.
I just am not really easy to convince as long as I can easily disprove statements made without images, old articles or references to old provenanced pieces! I guess that's a good quality being a serious collector.

Rg,
Maurice