Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2012, 09:24 PM

This is a most interesting court sword, but I am very puzzled by this strange attribution. I hope this isnt taken wrong, but for us 'old timers' these resources, Museum of Historical Arms and of course the well known Fagan catalogs were quite notorious as the origins of a number of rather fanciful classifications now over four decades ago. Certainly they served well as a benchmark for future research on many weapons forms, much as many of the venerable references, but that research often revealed revised positions accordingly.
The Doges of Venice effectively ended as elected officials with the Napoleonic conquest in 1797, and the weaponry and mystery associated with some aspects of this office are well known, most notably the Council of Ten and the famed schiavona swords of the Dalmatian bodyguards.

This sword, of which I am uncertain as far as dimensions, seems to be a commemorative item, and does resemble the also notorious stilettos of Venice which became known as bombardiers stilettos as they were used by gunners in Venetian service. The configuration with pronounced quillon block and short symmetrical quillons resembles that of these stilettos.

My question is why would this motto referring to the Ukrainian hero of the seige of Vienna in 1683, to whom this motto is ascribed by the Polish King Jan Sobieski, be significant to a member of the Doges palace guards, and on a commemorative weapon which appears to be of 19th century with this motif apparantly acid etched. This type etching, while certainly known earlier, seems to have become popular later in the 18th century. It is worthy of note that the Historismus period, most notably toward art and philosophy also affected classical revival interests in other fields as well.

25th November 2012, 09:24 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	This is a most interesting court sword, but I am very puzzled by this strange attribution. I hope this isnt taken wrong, but for us 'old timers' these resources, Museum of Historical Arms and of course the well known Fagan catalogs were quite notorious as the origins of a number of rather fanciful classifications now over four decades ago. Certainly they served well as a benchmark for future research on many weapons forms, much as many of the venerable references, but that research often revealed revised positions accordingly. The Doges of Venice effectively ended as elected officials with the Napoleonic conquest in 1797, and the weaponry and mystery associated with some aspects of this office are well known, most notably the Council of Ten and the famed schiavona swords of the Dalmatian bodyguards. This sword, of which I am uncertain as far as dimensions, seems to be a commemorative item, and does resemble the also notorious stilettos of Venice which became known as bombardiers stilettos as they were used by gunners in Venetian service. The configuration with pronounced quillon block and short symmetrical quillons resembles that of these stilettos. My question is why would this motto referring to the Ukrainian hero of the seige of Vienna in 1683, to whom this motto is ascribed by the Polish King Jan Sobieski, be significant to a member of the Doges palace guards, and on a commemorative weapon which appears to be of 19th century with this motif apparantly acid etched. This type etching, while certainly known earlier, seems to have become popular later in the 18th century. It is worthy of note that the Historismus period, most notably toward art and philosophy also affected classical revival interests in other fields as well.