Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

RSWORD · 24th August 2005, 01:26 AM

You have had the opportunity to handle the piece which provides an advantage over viewing pictures and I respect your opinion to disagree with me. I still do not think it is wootz and I will give some more points as to why I do not think it is wootz. Your view is that it is wootz because it looks like wootz and the pattern resembles that of a Kindjal that you have which has lost its pattern due to heat treatment. However, you can also find similar patterns in Japanese sword from their complex folding of steel resulting in hada which can have a very wootz like appearance. Andrew has a dha in which the body of the blade has a fantastic "hada" which resembles sham wootz but from other details of the blade we know it is of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks of the steel are of this folded steel with inserted hardened edge. After thinking more about this piece, I believe it is probably of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks are of folded steel with an inserted edge. This would explain the lamination you are seeing in the blade and also the clear zone along the edge. By the way, not all wootz heat treated blades lose their pattern along the edge. It is all in the way the smith controls the temperature. I have several wootz examples where the edges are heat treated but the pattern is still visible but the heat treated zone shows up as a different color than the rest of the blade. You had also premised that Piso Podangs have wootz blades why not Northern Philippines. Basically, there is no precedent for wootz blades anywhere in the PI. I have yet to see a wootz blade mounted up Moro or Northern PI. This blade, as Ian has referred to, is a typical blade style referred to as Matulis. There are many examples of blades from this region having inserted edges which are heat treated. Is it possible a wootz ingot found its way to the Northern Philippines. I think it is highly unlikely and I doubt a smith would have the knowledge to fully forge a blade from an ingot because he would not know how to control the temperature. He would have no success with the material. So I believe we can rule out that possibility. Is it possible that a wootz blade found its way to the Northern Philippines and was reworked into its current profile. Yes, I think it is possible but highly unlikely. I very much doubt that a smith reworking a blade would only lose the pattern on the edges when heat treating.

Trust me, I would love for this blade to be wootz. I have kidded with a fellow forumite that I have several wootz bladed Moro Kris for sale but it is a running gag because we know that, to date, there is no such thing. When someone brings a possible heretofor unknown example I think there should be critical review of it before making a wishful thinking leap based solely on appearance. For now, I remain the wootz skeptic who respectfully disagrees and hope you found the information offered helpful.

24th August 2005, 01:26 AM	#17
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	You have had the opportunity to handle the piece which provides an advantage over viewing pictures and I respect your opinion to disagree with me. I still do not think it is wootz and I will give some more points as to why I do not think it is wootz. Your view is that it is wootz because it looks like wootz and the pattern resembles that of a Kindjal that you have which has lost its pattern due to heat treatment. However, you can also find similar patterns in Japanese sword from their complex folding of steel resulting in hada which can have a very wootz like appearance. Andrew has a dha in which the body of the blade has a fantastic "hada" which resembles sham wootz but from other details of the blade we know it is of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks of the steel are of this folded steel with inserted hardened edge. After thinking more about this piece, I believe it is probably of sandwhich lamination in which the cheeks are of folded steel with an inserted edge. This would explain the lamination you are seeing in the blade and also the clear zone along the edge. By the way, not all wootz heat treated blades lose their pattern along the edge. It is all in the way the smith controls the temperature. I have several wootz examples where the edges are heat treated but the pattern is still visible but the heat treated zone shows up as a different color than the rest of the blade. You had also premised that Piso Podangs have wootz blades why not Northern Philippines. Basically, there is no precedent for wootz blades anywhere in the PI. I have yet to see a wootz blade mounted up Moro or Northern PI. This blade, as Ian has referred to, is a typical blade style referred to as Matulis. There are many examples of blades from this region having inserted edges which are heat treated. Is it possible a wootz ingot found its way to the Northern Philippines. I think it is highly unlikely and I doubt a smith would have the knowledge to fully forge a blade from an ingot because he would not know how to control the temperature. He would have no success with the material. So I believe we can rule out that possibility. Is it possible that a wootz blade found its way to the Northern Philippines and was reworked into its current profile. Yes, I think it is possible but highly unlikely. I very much doubt that a smith reworking a blade would only lose the pattern on the edges when heat treating. Trust me, I would love for this blade to be wootz. I have kidded with a fellow forumite that I have several wootz bladed Moro Kris for sale but it is a running gag because we know that, to date, there is no such thing. When someone brings a possible heretofor unknown example I think there should be critical review of it before making a wishful thinking leap based solely on appearance. For now, I remain the wootz skeptic who respectfully disagrees and hope you found the information offered helpful.