Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post

laEspadaAncha · 27th February 2012, 02:16 AM

Hi Spiral,

I would suggest visting my Bowie knife thread from a year or so ago for an additional example of a mid-19th century knife with a brass guard. However, if the guard (on the side knife I show above) is brass, it is a white brass alloy, and more likely, German silver with a tarnish. Regardless, both the guard material and form as found on this knife (pointed ovoid) were common for mid-19th century knives (the thread also has a photograph of this particular knife):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13612

For that matter, if you can find even a single example - just one - of a Pakistani knock-off (contemporary or otherwise) that exhibits the proper "U*S" trademark stamp used by Edward Barnes & Sons to market their knives to the abolitionist American market - and as present in this example - I would very seriously consider sending you this knife for free.

I agree the fitment is less than optimal, though I have more than a few knives that exhibit similar less-than-stellar fits, and have handled more examples than I can remember over the last 20-25 years. Both the guard material and form are common for mid-19th century knives, the 'white metal' used in the grip was commonly used through the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 19th century (though IMO it is not the best choice for a grip), the MoP rosettes are stylistically consistent with the period, and the knife retains it's original sheath, which is obviously of the same age of the knife.

I do in fact post on Bladeforums, as long before I could afford a decent sword I had been collecting American knives (while not made in the US, this knife was made for the American market), and I estimate I have more than 200 in my collection, from Revolutionary War side knives to LE folders made within the last quarter century.

As I regret having digressed from the original topic of this thread - and have already apologized for the same to Cerjak - I would invite you to PM me with an email address if you would like to continue the discussion about this particular knife, which I would be happy to do.

I will, however, leave you with a couple pictures of other Edward Barnes & Sons knives contemporary to my own, stamped in the same sans serif font.

Ironically, this first knife was posted on Bladeforums (over two years ago). Please note the similarities with regards to the thickness and pointed ovoid shape of the guard:

The etching on the above example reads, "For the Gold Searchers Protection," dating this knife's manufacture to the Gold Rush market ca. 1850.

This next example was made to commemorate General Zachary Taylor's victory at the Battle of Buena Vista in 1847. Please note the use of both a sans serif font as well as a 'footed' font on the reverse of the blade:

Lastly, here is another example from Cowans, yet another Civil War era Edward Barnes & Sons knife that is stamped in a sans serif font. Please note the poor fit of the guard:

There is overwhelming evidence that English cutlers were employing the use of a sans serif font by mid-century.

Provided evidence exists that foundries were producing dye stamps in sans serif fonts in 1850, one should at the very least consider the validity of the anecdotal evidence suggesting they were being produced as early as 1830 as suggested in the link in my last response, which is much closer to the lifecycle of this weapon than a date of post-1870.

I would therefore suggest that regardless of any perceived peculiarities regarding the execution and/or placement of the stamp(s) on the muzzle, that it might be premature to dismiss its validity for the use of the (sans serif) font per se.

Regards,

Chris

27th February 2012, 02:16 AM	#32
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Spiral, I would suggest visting my Bowie knife thread from a year or so ago for an additional example of a mid-19th century knife with a brass guard. However, if the guard (on the side knife I show above) is brass, it is a white brass alloy, and more likely, German silver with a tarnish. Regardless, both the guard material and form as found on this knife (pointed ovoid) were common for mid-19th century knives (the thread also has a photograph of this particular knife): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13612 For that matter, if you can find even a single example - just one - of a Pakistani knock-off (contemporary or otherwise) that exhibits the proper "US" trademark stamp used by Edward Barnes & Sons to market their knives to the abolitionist American market - and as present in this example - I would very seriously consider sending you this knife for free. I agree the fitment is less than optimal, though I have more than a few knives that exhibit similar less-than-stellar fits, and have handled more examples than I can remember over the last 20-25 years. Both the guard material and form are common for mid-19th century knives, the 'white metal' used in the grip was commonly used through the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 19th century (though IMO it is not the best choice for a grip), the MoP rosettes are stylistically consistent with the period, and the knife retains it's original sheath, which is obviously of the same age of the knife. I do in fact post on Bladeforums, as long before I could afford a decent sword I had been collecting American knives (while not made in the US, this knife was made for the American market), and I estimate I have more than 200 in my collection, from Revolutionary War side knives to LE folders made within the last quarter century. As I regret having digressed from the original topic of this thread - and have already apologized for the same to Cerjak - I would invite you to PM me with an email address if you would like to continue the discussion about this particular knife, which I would be happy to do. I will, however, leave you with a couple pictures of other Edward Barnes & Sons knives contemporary to my own, stamped in the same sans serif font. Ironically, this first knife was posted on Bladeforums (over two years ago). Please note the similarities with regards to the thickness and pointed ovoid shape of the guard: The etching on the above example reads, "For the Gold Searchers Protection," dating this knife's manufacture to the Gold Rush market ca. 1850. This next example was made to commemorate General Zachary Taylor's victory at the Battle of Buena Vista in 1847. Please note the use of both* a sans serif font as well as a 'footed' font on the reverse of the blade: Lastly, here is another example from Cowans, yet another Civil War era Edward Barnes & Sons knife that is stamped in a sans serif font. Please note the poor fit of the guard: There is overwhelming evidence that English cutlers were employing the use of a sans serif font by mid-century. Provided evidence exists that foundries were producing dye stamps in sans serif fonts in 1850, one should at the very least consider the validity of the anecdotal evidence suggesting they were being produced as early as 1830 as suggested in the link in my last response, which is much closer to the lifecycle of this weapon than a date of post-1870. I would therefore suggest that regardless of any perceived peculiarities regarding the execution and/or placement of the stamp(s) on the muzzle, that it might be premature to dismiss its validity for the use of the (sans serif) font per se. Regards, Chris Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 27th February 2012 at 06:42 AM. Reason: To capitalize German... my castle for a proofreader!