Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - West African ? sword for I.D. and comment.

Iain · 25th October 2011, 05:42 PM

Hi Colin,

Sorry if I missed the jist of your rondel dagger a bit!

I like a good discussion and this is shaping up nicely...

Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion.

Mostly agree. Although I wouldn't say there's a propensity, I know of a few examples, like the ones you posted that are more or less exact copies. Otherwise we have blades that make their way into native mounts. However, I am struggling a bit to think of a wide spread obviously European derived mount?

I think the East African line is a bit of coincidence. For example Ethiopian blades, Sudanese or Omani would have been available in many of these areas. The fact that they did not get traded widely inland leads me to think there was no market, not sure why, but obviously they weren't in demand.

I'm afraid I don't see the influence in the round sword hilt in your pictures. I certainly do see it in the daggers, but as I mentioned before these are more or less pure imitations. The sword doesn't seem to be to me. But maybe I'm having one of my obtuse days and missing your point?

Still I think we have to make a distinction between obvious copies and forms that are not obvious and therefore possibly older and without European influence.

Any pictures of the Mende sword copies? A quick Google didn't turn anything up I'm afraid. Muskets are of course a more or less European import to the region so I'd expect them to follow the European form.

I guess I'm very wary of direct attribution and connection to a European form except when clear cut, partly because European writers not so long ago were unable to believe in Africans making advances on their own (not that any of us are suggesting that is the case!). I don't want to go near the same pitfall. Personally I think it's a little to easy to draw some lines, connect the dots and come up with a connection. I also tend to think common problems breed common solutions.

Of course I can also think of many purely European forms in native styles, like the interesting Mossi sword with the bow guard hilt Mauro posted recently. Even I would be stretched to argue that wasn't taken directly from French military sabres.

So what can I say other than I agree in part, but I'm very cautious.

25th October 2011, 05:42 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Colin, Sorry if I missed the jist of your rondel dagger a bit! I like a good discussion and this is shaping up nicely... Given the propensity in West Africa to mimic European forms, particularly in regard to weapons, (we have already seen several examples), this possibility must be looked at, to arrive at an objective conclusion. Mostly agree. Although I wouldn't say there's a propensity, I know of a few examples, like the ones you posted that are more or less exact copies. Otherwise we have blades that make their way into native mounts. However, I am struggling a bit to think of a wide spread obviously European derived mount? I think the East African line is a bit of coincidence. For example Ethiopian blades, Sudanese or Omani would have been available in many of these areas. The fact that they did not get traded widely inland leads me to think there was no market, not sure why, but obviously they weren't in demand. I'm afraid I don't see the influence in the round sword hilt in your pictures. I certainly do see it in the daggers, but as I mentioned before these are more or less pure imitations. The sword doesn't seem to be to me. But maybe I'm having one of my obtuse days and missing your point? Still I think we have to make a distinction between obvious copies and forms that are not obvious and therefore possibly older and without European influence. Any pictures of the Mende sword copies? A quick Google didn't turn anything up I'm afraid. Muskets are of course a more or less European import to the region so I'd expect them to follow the European form. I guess I'm very wary of direct attribution and connection to a European form except when clear cut, partly because European writers not so long ago were unable to believe in Africans making advances on their own (not that any of us are suggesting that is the case!). I don't want to go near the same pitfall. Personally I think it's a little to easy to draw some lines, connect the dots and come up with a connection. I also tend to think common problems breed common solutions. Of course I can also think of many purely European forms in native styles, like the interesting Mossi sword with the bow guard hilt Mauro posted recently. Even I would be stretched to argue that wasn't taken directly from French military sabres. So what can I say other than I agree in part, but I'm very cautious.