[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Ganja, I apologise for making life difficult for you, and perhaps for some others as well. I know just how very difficult it can be to get to the core of a matter when we are forced to address that matter in a language other than our own. Personally, I consider that you handle the English language extremely well indeed, and I freely admit, some of the concepts I was skirting around in last night's post might be beyond the grasp of many native English speakers. It was a long post, and I was on my hobby-horse and enjoying the ride..

Language problem is one thing, and cultural barrier is another thing. Sometimes I encounter a strange situation, everytime I read keris books -- for instance -- which were published abroad, not in Indonesia. Or read keris forum such this. Really I must change my mindset, not as a javanese again, but as a global citizen which has a borderless culture. Global culture... And sometimes, not javanese culture anymore although we talk about javanese keris culture...

I can not describe furthermore on this, because of my limited ability to express exactly what I feel and think -- in English. In our javanese circle, if we want to be serious to "learn" the spirit of keris, then it is good too if we then learn from "tembang" (traditional recited poetry), the culture of keris. There are so many things about keris world, that were expressed in "tembang" literature in the past, that we can still recite until now. But of course, we must major reciting "tembang" first (as did the fantastic American researcher, Mrs Nancy Florida. You knew her already, and of course her desertation and book on certain kraton culture in Kraton Solo, "Writing the Past, Inscribing the Future". She is regarded "more javanese" than us, javanese people. She speaks javanese very fluently, understand very well, because she was living at certain time in the past, inside the Kraton Solo as one of King Paku Buwono's wives).

There are so many nuances that we can grasp, on keris, if we understand what people in the past said about keris, and not excluded too -- sometimes on dhapur, or on ricikan of kerises.

In some "keris discussions" in java -- even in Jakarta now -- sometimes people reciting "tembang", which contain some simple javanese narration on keris. But of course, we must understand to some way of how to express tembang. A "dandang gula " (a certain type of recitation) narration, of course must be recited in "dandang gula" way. Also, a "kinanti" recitation, or "megatruh", "pangkur", "sinom" must be recited in their specific way. The intonation of each "tembang" also could give the way to express the narration, and so we can memorize the recitation, and the meaning of the recitation.

I can not tell you further on this, because I'm not majoring much this habit except to understand what they recite the narration, in higher grade javanese language. Many thing I can learn from such recitation, the culture of keris in the past. On keris, in some recitations, sometimes we find descriptions of keris "ricikan", or keris dhapur in "tembang"... I don't think this habit is important for us in this forum, at all... But maybe important for me or us in Java, to learn further more on the javanese spirit, or deeper knowledge on keris spirit...

Then, if I read certain books on keris which were published abroad, sometimes I must change my attitude. And try to understand, for instance, if I read a "new" keris term to read -- as "durga hilt", for instance. That we never read such terminology in whatever literature in Java. Or if someone interpretes, that "karno tinanding" is a keris "with two ears". This is also something strange for us, javanese people. All we knew on "karno tinanding" is "karno in Baratayuda", which was (in the epic, legend) fighting against his own brother, Arjuna. As does to keris name such as "Bima Krodha" for instance. "Bima Krodha", of course could not be translated literally, but we must understand too, the nuance of the story of "The Angry Bima" in Baratayuda literature.

Yes, we know that "karna" means "ear", But what I heard always, that "karna tinanding" here is Karno in Baratayuda. Two "sekar kacang" is not two ears, is it? Sekar kacang does not represent ear. But elephant trunk. But I must accept, that's the easier way to understand the "karno tinanding", although we in Java usually not understand it that way.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....anybody can have an opinion

but everybody's opinion is not equal

there is the informed opinion, and there is the uniformed opinion

in any matter of weight only a fool will give an opinion and not wish for his opinion to receive respect

if we wish our opinion to be treated with respect we need to provide evidence or argument that our opinion is worthy of respect

when we are dealing with the keris, we can adopt at least two varying positions:- we can adopt the "social" position, where we make noises and give opinions simply to engage in conversation; opinions given whilst in this mode need not be taken too seriously and rejection need not cause offence

or, we can adopt the "serious" position, and when we do this we do need to provide evidence or argument to validate the opinion we give......

All I know, there are only two positions in this forum. The moderator -- Rick and David -- and the others are ordinary members. I didn't know that there is a differentiation in "social position" and "serious position". How can we differentiate? Are the serious position members, have a special status?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....with reference to the keris, this is relatively easy to do, because a number guidebooks and documents set forth the parameters by which we shall classify a keris

where such a guidebook or document has had the approval of a ruler, then the only variation that is permissable within the area where the dictates of that ruler are considered to be paramount, is a variation that has the approval of the current ruler of that area.......

I don't think it is easy. We will get more difficult, if we must do this. Which reference guide books? Can we use that guide books to consider parameters in any keris? I don't think so. It is impossible, if you want to understand Cirebonese kerises with Kraton Solo guidance only.. Even if we want to understand more details on keris Solo, we must specify which pakem? Which Paku Buwono? We can not always use the latest guidance, for appreciating the older kerises although still in the same Kraton...

We know already, for instance, that since Gianti Treaty (February 13, 1755) -- Mataram was splitted in to two ways Solonese and Yogyakartan. Can we appreciate Solonese nom-noman (younger era keris) with Yogyakartan guidance? Or vice versa, can we appreciate Yogyakartan nom-noman such as famous kerises from HB VII with Solonese kraton guidance? Sometimes, contradiction happens...

Those were the problems, IMHO, encountered by Haryono Guritno's team (consist of certain respected keris people, IMHO) when they were preparing the keris proposal for UNESCO, and his book on "Keris Jawa". Which pakem they will use? And we can see from his book -- Mr Guritno accomodate some pakem in certain footnote, of the keris details matrix, for instance). I am not Guritno's follower, but I can respect him, respect his team's effort...

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....dhapur names are a system of classification

however, although those names can be understood, and do have a superficial meaning, they fail to convey any sense

the philosophical meanings that are currently attached to many dhapur names are probably no more than a couple of hundred years old, in most cases, and have more to do with Javanese philosophy than with the origins of the keris as a social icon --- however, this is essentially a different subject and need not be addressed here.

any classification system only has value as a device to sort things into groups :- it does not imply any knowledge of the content of that which is classified, it only verifies knowledge of the system by which one classifies.As an example, a clerk in an inwards mail facilty can read a letter, or an email, and he can classify it according to its content and direct it to the person in his organisation who can deal with the matters therein. But that clerk knows nothing of those matters that need to be dealt with.

it is exactly the same when we classify a keris according to dhapur or pamor or tangguh or whatever:- we understand the classificatory system, but we fail to understand the keris that we have classified.

Because of this I hold the position that knowledge of the classifcatory systems used in dealing with the keris is knowledge of a very minor degree.

For a certain extent, I agree. But me as javanese, we are different. We have different perception in some way. For us, we learn other way....

GANJAWULUNG