Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Late Gothic Crossbows and Accouterments (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7516)

fernando 10th June 2012 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordfish
... There is no need for any prevention brakes, such as closing a thread...

Oh no, the brakes weren't meant for that.

Andrew 11th June 2012 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordfish
Dear Fernando,

It is not my intention to exchange personal disputes here, but if I am criticised hard to depict fakes here, it must be allowed to give a hard answer.


Good. The best way to avoid personal disputes here is to maintain a diplomatic and polite demeanor, as suggested by your moderator.

Quote:
I don't believe that this forum should be a Theology-tutorial, where no controversial discussion is allowed.


What you believe this forum "should be" is irrelevant--you are a guest.

Quote:
A discussion without opposed oppinions is no real discussion, but I know when I have to stop. There is no need for any prevention brakes, such as closing a thread.


Excellent. Thank you, in advance, for your continued consideration and cooperation.

cornelistromp 13th June 2012 08:14 AM

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to classify a weapon as doubtful or falsification , is permitted but this must be done deliberately.
not because of a gut feeling or because such person has never seen it before. Oakeshott quote: It Means nothing That You never seen it before unless you have seen them all, those 100.000's.
if such a statement is not brought argued, it evokes the natural incomprehension and irritation. action is minus reaction! maybe we can restrict ourselves to the facts.

the crossbow under discussion post#153;
a reflex and recurved composite bow is probably the most efficient form. This bow is similar in shape to the 15th century ottoman short composite flight bow. This has the greatest cast ever known and is suitable for heavy and light arrows but also brings more energy to lighter arrows. see research Mr. Adam Karpowicz's

http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Perfor...urkish_bows.htm


Crossbow post 153 and 156

Making Such a bow requires high skill and patience. Because of the long time required for the organic materials to dry it takes 1 to 3 years to make a composite bow. So I think we can definitively exclude a modern forgery.

although I like the crossbow of post # 156 better, I think that Both of them are original mid 15th C, South??? or Central Europe???, the parts are almost certainly.
it can be, but this is only an assumption that in the very early life of the crossbow post #153 the stock has been renewed.this is based on the rather square shape of the stock.

that other than the common materials have been used I do not see as an alarm signal, as long as it was available and it works in practice, it is simply just possible.

best,

David Jaumann 13th June 2012 10:04 AM

@Matchlock: Tank you for the pictures of the cranequins from Churburg!

Strong reflex bows are indeed the fastest ones! But Iīm very much impressed that bows with thick cross sections, like the ones from the late 15th century shown in the last few posts can endure such a strong reflex. The material of bows with high cross sections is really much stressed. (Thatīs also the reason why english warbows with thick cross sections usually were made of yew wood.)

I have found one more wooden stock probably made of oak wood on the internet today. It was probably made in the 15th century and it is exposed in Hambourg. The trigger mechanism is very simple because the string is released with a "Zapfenschloss".

Here is thethe link:
http://folini.tikon.ch/reenactment/...%20Hamburg.jpeg


best wishes,

David

fernando 13th June 2012 02:09 PM

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Hi David,
Links are not so good for the thread history and forum archives preservation.
Direct upload is what should preferably be done.
By the way, this crossbow stock you post, exhibited in Hamburg State Museum, is labeled as a Children's example ;)

.

David Jaumann 13th June 2012 02:20 PM

Thank you for posting the picture! I tried at first posting it directely, but it didnīt work because the picture was to big. How can I scale down the sice of the pictures?

Yes, it is labeled as a childrenīs example!
I donīt have the mesurements, but I belive that the bow fixed on the stock was probably to heavy for a child, because the bow must have been quite broad. What do you think?

Matchlock 13th June 2012 02:47 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jaumann
@Matchlock: Tank you for the pictures of the cranequins from Churburg!

Strong reflex bows are indeed the fastest ones! But Iīm very much impressed that bows with thick cross sections, like the ones from the late 15th century shown in the last few posts can endure such a strong reflex. The material of bows with high cross sections is really much stressed. (Thatīs also the reason why english warbows with thick cross sections usually were made of yew wood.)

I have found one more wooden stock probably made of oak wood on the internet today. It was probably made in the 15th century and it is exposed in Hambourg. The trigger mechanism is very simple because the string is released with a "Zapfenschloss".

Here is thethe link:
http://folini.tikon.ch/reenactment/...%20Hamburg.jpeg


best wishes,

David



Hi David,



Thank you so much for bringing this remarkable sample to our knowledge!

And 'Nando, thanks a lot for adding the photo and pointing out that the item was designed for a child.
I did some photoshopping and like to add for information that it is the City Museum (Stadtmuseum) Hamburg where it is on display.


Best,
Michl

Swordfish 13th June 2012 03:47 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi David,



Thank you so much for bringing this remarkable sample to our knowledge!

And 'Nando, thanks a lot for adding the photo and pointing out that the item was designed for a child.
I did some photoshopping and like to add for information that it is the City Museum (Stadtmuseum) Hamburg where it is on display.


Best,
Michl


Unfortunately this 'remarkable' item is no medieval crossbow! This is a tiller of a whale-bow which were used in Norway until about c. 1900! See Josef Alm: European Crossbows.
Depending on the length maybe a children's whale-bow used as a toy.

Best

David Jaumann 13th June 2012 04:21 PM

Thank you for the wale-crossbow pictures, Swordfish!
Itīs a really interesting one! Iīm very amazed that crossbows were used for hunting until 1900.

I know a german drawing from about 1475, which shows a man sitting on a stool, who has a crossbow with a quite simular shape in his hands. It looks like he is shooting at a target.
This norwegian design thus seems to be existing since the 15th centery! And it presumably also was used in southern germany!

fernando 13th June 2012 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jaumann
Thank you for posting the picture! I tried at first posting it directely, but it didnīt work because the picture was to big. How can I scale down the sice of the pictures?


You have to do it with help of a resizing program, David.
Have you consulted this thread ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14688

Swordfish 13th June 2012 07:45 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jaumann
Thank you for the wale-crossbow pictures, Swordfish!
Itīs a really interesting one! Iīm very amazed that crossbows were used for hunting until 1900.

I know a german drawing from about 1475, which shows a man sitting on a stool, who has a crossbow with a quite simular shape in his hands. It looks like he is shooting at a target.
This norwegian design thus seems to be existing since the 15th centery! And it presumably also was used in southern germany!


Hi David,

I remember having seen this drawing somewhere, but can't remember what type of lock it had. If the drawing is from 1475, it is unlikely that it has this type of lock (or an outmoded type was depicted). During the second half of the 15th century all central European crossbows had a nut-lock. The Zapfenschloss type of lock was in use in the 14th century or early 15th century, but rarely. Attached a picture from the Swiss National Museum with a crossbow of this type.

Best

David Jaumann 14th June 2012 03:12 PM

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Thanks for your help, Fernando! I have installed a resizing program and now it hopefully works.

So hereīs the picture I described yesterday. The clothing of the man is typical for about 1475. The generally shape of the crossbow is the same as the wale hunting crossbow of the late 19th century. It even has a Zapfenschloss! I donīt think that there were many of these crossbows, but they existed also during the late 15th century!

best wishes,

David

Swordfish 14th June 2012 06:58 PM

Hi David,

This is an other drawing than I remembered, but it looks clearly like a Zapfenschloss. Unfortunately I'm no expert for medieval fashion, therefore I can say nothing to the dating. But as I assumed, probably an outmoded type of crossbow was still in use at this time. The same can be observed on early target rifles of the first half of the 17th century, which still had a matchlock at a time where hunting rifles were already equipped with a wheellock since some decades.

Best

Matchlock 18th June 2012 06:33 PM

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Another of the extremely rare instances in period artwork where a spanning belt and hook are illustrated; this, from a Swabian painting of ca. 1430-40, Bavarian National Museum (BNM), inv.no. MA 3395, is probably the earliest!

m

Swordfish 18th June 2012 06:41 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordfish
Hi David,

This is an other drawing than I remembered, but it looks clearly like a Zapfenschloss. Unfortunately I'm no expert for medieval fashion, therefore I can say nothing to the dating. But as I assumed, probably an outmoded type of crossbow was still in use at this time. The same can be observed on early target rifles of the first half of the 17th century, which still had a matchlock at a time where hunting rifles were already equipped with a wheellock since some decades.

Best


Hi David ,

surveying the drawing once again, I noticed that the tiller and the bow are very slender and not very large. The depicted scene therefore may be a target shooting at short range at a funfair. The depicted crossbow is possibly a special type used for such purposes, not very strong and cheap. The same can be observed at funfairs today, where no war-weapons were used, but special air-guns.
I still belive that in the second half of the 15th century no war-or hunting crossbows were made new with a 'Zapfenschloss', but this is only an assumption, proofs are hard to find.

Best

Swordfish 18th June 2012 07:04 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Another of the extremely rare instances in period artwork where a spanning belt and hook are illustrated; this, from a Swabian painting of ca. 1430-40, Bavarian National Museum (BNM), inv.no. MA 3395, is probably the earliest!

m


Quite the contrary, spanning hooks are often depicted in medieval artwork, I needed only a minute to find an earlier one. St. Stephan South-Tyrol c.1400-1410.
Pleas note the kink in the trigger lever, with an angle > 90 degrees.
This is a clear indication for early crossbows of the 14th century.

Swordfish 18th June 2012 07:19 PM

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Another earlier one. Easy to find.
Romance Alexander, c.1340

Do you need still more? I have saved dozens on my Hard Disk.

Matchlock 18th June 2012 08:14 PM

I already posted this and similar others in posts # 96 and 97, so it was easy to find indeed.

Apart from that not only just me in particular would be interested in seeing your remaining material.

Swordfish 18th June 2012 08:53 PM

If you have posted the last and others, why do you then write such clearly wrong statements (to avoid the word nonsence) as Quote:
'extremely rare instances in period artwork where a spanning belt and hook are illustrated... from a Swabian painting of ca. 1430-40...is probably the earliest!'

This depiction on a painting of the 15th century is neither extremely rare, nor is it the earliest!

David Jaumann 19th June 2012 02:22 PM

Hi Swordfish,

Your assumption sounds really likely! There are as you said no pictures from the late 15th century, where such crossbows were shown as war or hunting weapons. I donīt know any picture at least.

Best,

David

Matchlock 19th June 2012 02:37 PM

Sorry this was your last chance.

Once again your choice of words has gotten uunecessarily aggressive and it is obviously my person which you have chosen as a target, instead of the topic.

You are always getting very personal, which means insulting. As you have been told here by others before you are unable to differentiate between discussion and personal aggression. This ability though is the main prerequisite for anybody trying to convey special knowledge in a field where the easy-to-grasp black and white instances are rare but where delicate shadings in between are manifold.

I do not believe in absolute expertise; what I believe in is studying together by sharing and discoursing on a commonly accepted friendly level. I have always seen our forum as an equitable community rather than a stage for individual grandstanding.
Go on believing you are the best.


From now on I will completely ignore your posts.

fernando 19th June 2012 06:34 PM

Accusations are taking over peaceful perspectives.
Thread now locked, at least temporarily.

Andrew 19th June 2012 07:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
From now on I will completely ignore your posts.


This is a good idea. Explore the "ignore" function, please. Both of you. Today.

fernando 20th June 2012 05:50 PM

After having proceeded with some backstage adjustments connected with inconvenient participation, it was decided to reopen this thread ... essentially due to its added value.
Thank you.

Matchlock 28th June 2012 08:53 PM

An Unusually Fine Late Gothic Crossbow Windlass, ca. 1500-20
 
7 Attachment(s)
The German term is Seilwinde.

Of wrought iron, inlaid with two engraved copper-alloy panels depicting St. George Slaying the Dagon and St. Genevičve of Brabant respectively;
the wooden crank handles missing.

Provenance:

- Christie's, April 17, 1988 (top attachment)
- Czerny's, October 17, 2008.

m

David Jaumann 29th June 2012 10:12 AM

Thatīs a very interesting windlass, Matchlock!
According to my knowledge, windlasses were often used in England (an other name for it is "englische Winde"), in the Flanders, and also in Italy. I have seen several of them in the dogeīs palace in Venice. I suppose that all crossbows spanned with windlasses had rectangular stocks.
In the Kaiserburg of Nuremberg, there is a big "Wallarmbrust" of the 14th century, which also has a windlass on the stock.

There is a second crossbow from the late 15th century exposed in Nuremberg, which has a windlass on its stock. But I do think that this crossbow doesnīt match together with a windlass because it has a round stock and also a "Windknebel". It means, that it probably was spanned with a cranequin.
Besides that, this mentioned crossbow is a very unusual one! Its stock is, like already said, typical for the late 15th century. But the trigger has a ball on the back end and the prod is also very unusual for the late 15th century. It is a typical 14th or early 15th century flat prod with a strong reflex and the ends are bent foreward.
Next week, I will be in Nuremberg. I can take some photos of this crossbow if you want!

Do you think that there were german crossbows at all (apart from a "Wallarmbrust"), which had rectangular stocks and which were spanned with windlasses?

best wishes,

David

Matchlock 29th June 2012 12:29 PM

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Hi David,


I know of only one wall crossow in the Nuremberg Imperial Castle exhibited together with a windlass and I posted it in post # 3 in this thread (and repeated down here).
I'd like to add that the rear end of its tiller is now incomplete and was originally longer.

I would be very grateful though if you could take good and detailed images of the 14th c. gun arrow, with iron fletchings (!), displayed inaptly to the left side of the wall crosswbow, asserting it belonged to it - which of course is rubbish!
When looking closely at the rear end of the arrow you will see that it clearly tapers; this is exactly the place where formerly a cord binding was attached, for tight contact with the gun's muzzle!
I remember spotting that very same gun arrow when it was still in a drawer in the reserve collection of the Germanisches Nationalmuseum, some 25 years ago; I pointed out that it actually was a gun arrow, and that its rear end still retained a small remainder of cord attached! The guy in charge rejected my theory, and when I next saw that arrow the cord was gone! ...

This sensational gun arrow has not been brought to anybody's attention so far although it is in much better condition than the famous ones in Burg Eltz!


It can be seen in the photos in post # 3 and attached below!


I would also be glad to see the second Nuremberg crossbow you mentioned, the tiller fitted with lugs for a cranequin, and now shown together with a windlass; please take some photos!


And yes, I too am convinced that windlasses were used in combination with crossbows with rectangular tillers. I cannot remember noticing it ...


Btw, I found out that I actually presented this fine windlass in post no. # 2; the images are better this time though.



Best wishes in return,
Michael

Matchlock 29th June 2012 08:47 PM

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A depiction of a Late Gothic crossbow with composite horn bow painted with a lozenge pattern; from an altar piece by Hans Pleydenwurff, 1468-75, now preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg.

Close-up photos by the author.


m

David Jaumann 30th June 2012 09:41 PM

Hi Michael!

I know at least a part of the picture you postet! The guard with the crossbow is shown in the book "Die Hornbogenarmbrust". I will have a look at it next week :)

Itīs really aweful, that this guy from the museum removed the cord from the gun arrow! It sounds to me, as if he knew that your theory is right. Probably, he was to proud to admit it! I personally donīt know very much about early guns yet, but your view sounds very likely to me! The cord prevents the pressure from the explosion from escaping. Furthermore, the back end of this gun arrow is round, which is not the right shape for fitting into a crossbow nut.

I will definately take some pictures of the gun arrow and the crossbow I mentioned ! But I canīt promise that they will be really sharp, becaue my camera sometimes has problems in darker rooms.

Best,

David

David Jaumann 1st July 2012 09:08 AM

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I have found a view good pictures of crossbow from Ulrich V.
It is a really unique crossbow, because it is much more decorated than the usual ones of the 15th century. Iīm also very much astonished that there are cristian and jewish doxologies on it . What meaning could it have?

There are even more peculiarities!
I have never seen a crossbow with such a short bow compared to the draw length. And I donīt know any other crossbow with a composite prod, which has a reinforced nut! Having examined the pictures, Iīm almost certain that the stock was made of yew wood!

David Jaumann 1st July 2012 09:11 AM

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some more pictures.

Matchlock 1st July 2012 10:57 AM

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Hi David,


Thanks for the additional images of the crossbow of Duke Ulrich of Württemberg dated 1460, which I introduced in post # 20.
It is preserved in the Met and is very unusual indeed in various respects.

The Met's description states that the bow does not belong originally, accounting for its small width, as well as the nut; it also gives some clues regarding the interpretation of the Hebrew inscription.

Yew wood was employed for making longbows for arrows, so your identification of the tiller being of yew wood is remarkable.


Best,
Michael

Matchlock 1st July 2012 08:22 PM

For a comprehensive treatise on gun arrows 1330-1570, see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...1767#post141767

m

fernando 16th September 2012 12:32 PM

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A (Portuguese soldier) figure with a crossbow, Benin Kingdom, mid XVI-XVII century (British Museum).
These bronze plates depicting Portuguese figures appeared after the exploring of the Kingdom in the end XV century. Benin was already established as a center for the casting of artworks in brass.
During this period, the figures of Portuguese soldiers and traders - recognizable for their long hair, aquiline noses and European dress - begin to appear in a variety of royal works, including plaques that decorated the pillars of Oba's (King's) palace.

.

Matchlock 16th September 2012 03:00 PM

Thank you, 'Nando,

For adding these facts hitherto unknown to me!

Best,
Michl

Matchlock 26th September 2012 05:08 PM

1483: Gothic Bows Throwing Incendiary Arrows Against Hackbuts!
 
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At least we may assume these are incendiary arrows. I realize they rather look as if a sheet of paper with the the notice 'Surrender!' is wrapped around the tips - but how much sense does that make?! :shrug:

From Diebold Schilling: Berne Chronicle, Switzerland, 1483; Siege of a town.

By the early 16th c., firearms had completely taken over in wafare.


Best,
Michael

Glaive203 1st December 2012 10:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Preserved at the City museum of Cologne, Germany.

In the first picture, the bow is of course inversed; this had been corrected by the time the second picture was taken.

The open curve of the composite bow is due to not having had a string attached for hundreds of years.

The detached bow of a huge wall crossbow also at the Cologne museum.

Michael


This is a false statement. Any horn bow or horn lath pulls forward like that when unstrung, even completely new ones.

fernando 2nd December 2012 10:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaive203
... This is a false statement...

What a vivid way to make your point, Glaive203. Remarkably over an observation posted four years ago.

David Jaumann 18th January 2013 02:16 PM

Hello together!

It has been a while since I posted the last time!
I have been to Nuremberg and I took the promised pictures of the crossbows exposed in the "Germanisches Nationalmuseum".

The first crossbow was made in about 1475. The bow seems to be strong (500kg of drawweight is possible). Therefore I was quite astonished that the trigger is so short, even though the lock is a one-axle lock mechanism. How is it possible to pull the trigger without much effort? It must be much easyer to pull the long trigger of a 14th or early 15th century crossbow with a weaker prod, so were the crossbowmakers during the late 15th century able to construct more efficient one axle-lock mechanisms than before?

The second late 15th century crossbow is the one with the obsolete stong reflex horn and sinew prod and the weird trigger. I have had an exact look at it and it seems to me that the bow and the trigger were not originaly attached to the stock. The prod seems to be to broad for the stock and the belly is too round to fit exactelly. A bow with theses dimensions must have a draw weight of much more than 500kgs, but the stock seems to be very thin and fragile (much thinner than the stock of the first crossbow). The stock has several quite dark horn inlays that look simular to the inlays shown in "Die Hornbogenarmbrust" (Abb. 91). The only inlay with a different colour is on the lower side where the unusual trigger is located. I have the impression that the original horn inlay was removed in order to fit in the seccond trigger. What do you think?

Best wishes,
David

David Jaumann 18th January 2013 02:44 PM

Iīm sorry... something with reducing the sice of the pictures didnīt work! I will post the pictures as soon as I have a soluion!


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