Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Breech loading 1450-1550 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7364)

Matchlock 14th April 2014 01:44 PM

For a highly interesting 'military' breechloading matchlock petronel, Suhl, ca. 1590-1600, please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9182#post169182

m

Itaca 4th May 2014 11:08 AM

Hangonne....
 
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Hi friends you compliment for the pieces that you have....
I believe that this is the correct topic for this reed of mine.

Do you think that it is of 1700 1800?
Do I believe that it misses the final part of the reed that was circular perhaps correct?
Total length 24 cms.
I calibrate inside (muzle) 1,3 / 1,4 cms.
Octagonal section.
Opposite extremity to the mouth 3 / 3,2 cms.
The space to entertain a settled handle is long 1,4 cms. and it is found in the right side.

Can you tell me more?
You excuse for mine bad English

Itaca 8th May 2014 07:35 PM

:confused: :confused: Nothing??

Matchlock 9th May 2014 11:45 AM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itaca
Hi friends you compliment for the pieces that you have....
I believe that this is the correct topic for this reed of mine.

Do you think that it is of 1700 1800?
Do I believe that it misses the final part of the reed that was circular perhaps correct?
Total length 24 cms.
I calibrate inside (muzle) 1,3 / 1,4 cms.
Octagonal section.
Opposite extremity to the mouth 3 / 3,2 cms.
The space to entertain a settled handle is long 1,4 cms. and it is found in the right side.

Can you tell me more?
You excuse for mine bad English




Hi Itaca,

Sorry for replying so late but it was only this morning that I noticed you query.

First of all, don't wory about your command of English; :) ;) being not a native English speaker myself, I perfectly understand what you wished me to do.
Just one little hint: by 'reed' you obviously mean 'barrel'; that's the correct term for your item in question.

I photoshopped your - sadly very dark - photos a bit and reattached them.
I guess the overall length of that barrel is 42 cm, rather than 24?
If it were German made I would say it is the barrel from a mid-16th century (ca. 1540-60) wheellock arquebus or long pistol; the touch hole is clearly visible, and as there a no traces of a formerly dovetailed pan it cannot have been a matchlock barrel.
But it was definitely altered within its working life, which may have lasted as long as the 18th century: the original long rear barrel tang and the originally dovetailed rear sight are now missing; the dovetailing is still visible. The short, pronouncedly rounded muzzle section is normally not found on barrels after ca. 1600.

To convey a rough idea of what the complete short arquebus/long saddle pistol might have looked like, I attached a photo of an originally preserved wheellock arquebus/pistol dated 1547, in the Real Armería Madrid.

Where was you barrel excavated or where did it come from?

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 9th May 2014 12:21 PM

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Wow, I just noticed that this thread had collected almost 30,500 views!

Thank you all for reading, and trusting my statements!

I will hang on doing my very best!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 9th May 2014 05:06 PM

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Hi broadaxe,

Sorry for almost overlooking your post. :rolleyes:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...364&page=6&pp=3

Yes, this is a mid- to second-half 15th century breechloading ship gun, originally mounted on the ship's rail, with its swivel stuck in the wood.
It is preserved completely, including its detachable breech.

After a bit of photoshopping, I reattached your picture.

Best,
Michael

Itaca 9th May 2014 11:16 PM

Hi Matchlock thanks for your answer...
I will hold well in consideration your suggestion, it is true that for me they are very difficult the specific terms, I think about translating from Italian but they are not the correct words.

You have really reason the length is of 42 cms. I have been wrong to write, this barrel;) I have found him in Albania, where I sometimes see some very beautiful rifles..

Matchlock 10th May 2014 09:58 AM

Thank you, Itaca,

Again: don't worry about your English, it is perfectly understood!

Best,
Michael

Andi 30th May 2014 08:46 PM

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A breech loader chamber of the 15th century found in 1932 in front of the famous Lübeck Holstentor. Photographed at Museum Holstentor Lübeck, Germany. Unfortunately no dimensions and caliber are given.

Andi 30th May 2014 09:02 PM

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Images from Tøjhusmuseet Copenhagen, Denmark.
The first is a netherlands 3/4 pounder called pothund of the 16th century the other ones were found in a ships wreck near Anholt.

Matchlock 10th December 2014 05:29 PM

A Good and Rare Breechloading Wall Gun (Bockbüchse), Suhl, ca. 1600-20
 
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This interesting piece of light artillery, the wrought iron barrel not marked but doubtlessly made either in Suhl or in the neighboring center of Zella, and the butt of the beechwood full stock carved with floral motifs in the characteristic Suhl manner, is mounted on its original two-wheeled carriage. This way, it could be moved more quickly from one place of the castle walls to another.

The Suhl style of carving stocks was carried out from ca. 1590 - the earliest known is a similar wall gun in the Livrustkammaren near Stockholm, the barrel struck with Suhl marks and the date 1592 - until ca. 1620 when the outbreak of the Thirty Years War in 1618 literally stopped any superfluous decoration of "military" guns.

Although this gun was made on the eve of the Thirty Years War, its breech still opens and shuts the same way breechloaders did around 1540. One iron cartridge is still preserved but oiriginally there must have been several more to enable rapid firing.
Even though this actually could be termed a high-tech item to the world of 400 years ago, it does not have an igniting mechanism. The ingnition had to be done the usual way: pour some priming powder on the pan-like moulded touch hole and touch it with either a glowing matchcord (German: Luntenstrick) clamped in the heaed of a linstock (German: Luntenstock) or a red hot igniting iron (German: Loseisen).

Its overall length including the carriage is ca. 3.5 meters.
The author photographed it in the exhibition rooms at Schloss Hohenlohe-Langenburg, which belongs to the Prince of Hohenlohe.

Similar pieces are in the Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt and the Veste Coburg.

In a part-sale of the armory of Schloss Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Thomas Del Mar Ltd., 3 December 2014, there was another breechloading Bockbüchse but with a simpler breech mechanism.
I will post it here soon.

For three interesting wall guns, two of them dated 1525 and 1537 respectively, the third ca. 1535-40, please see:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...85&page=3&pp=30



Best,
Michael

All photos copyrighted by the author.

Matchlock 11th December 2014 08:15 PM

Another Breechloading Bockbüchse, Almost Certainly Suhl, ca. 1600-20
 
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This was sold from the Hohenlohe-Langeburg armory at Thomas Del Mar, 3 December 2014.

m

Matchlock 11th December 2014 08:43 PM

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Two very similar Bockbüchsen, both Suhl made and dated 1609, are in the Historisches Museum Bern, Switzerland. The first is struck with Suhl proof marks, the dealer's mark of Valentin Klett the Elder.
As usual with pieces of artillery, it had was given a name, Shilt (shield).
The name of the other is Hund (dog or hound).

In the same museum is another Bockbüchse with a much much more refined breechloading system.

A very similar but really unique piece of early 17th century artillery high-tech, the barrel struck with the proof mark of the city of Zella near Suhl, the date 1619 - the second year of the Thirty Years War - was preserved completely with all its accouterments, including the original ball mold.
The contemporary historic term of such a breechloading Bockbüchse was Stück zum Geschwindschießen (rapid firing piece).

It got deaccessioned by the Prince of Hohenlohe from the Princely Collection at Schloss Hohenlohe-Langenburg and entered The Michael Trömner Collection in 1989, from where it was sold via Hermann Historica, 6 October 2008.
It is now in the collection, and on exhibition, at Burg Stolpen near Dresden.
Please watch the video on line:
http://www.burg-stolpen.org/en/homepage/

Burg Stolpen was founded in the 12th century.


The attached scans are from
Rudolf Wegeli: Inventar des Bernischen Historischen Museums in Bern; Bd. IV, 1948: Fernwaffen, pp. 85ff.

Photos copyrighted by Hermann Historica and by the author.


Best,
Michael

Matchlock 11th December 2014 09:14 PM

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More details.

Matchlock 11th December 2014 09:22 PM

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This is my good and brilliant friend Armin König, together with my Bockbüchse, in his armory in Hohenberg a.d. Eger:

http://www.engerisser.de/Bewaffnung...s/Firearms.html



Matchlock 11th December 2014 09:37 PM

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Matchlock 11th December 2014 09:46 PM

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Matchlock 11th December 2014 09:57 PM

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Matchlock 12th December 2014 10:03 PM

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A Suhl made breechloading Bockbüchse, early 17th c., in the historic arsenal (German: Zeughaus) at the Kunstsammlungen der Veste (fortress) Coburg, Franconia, Northern Bavaria.
Photo saved from Facebook.

Spiridonov 17th December 2014 12:00 PM

Michael, thank You for this great photos of breechloader. I think that cartridge for this gun was longer than breech thereby rear end of cartridge should be a little sticking out of the breech. When the breech block lift up it cut away rear end of the cartridge (like a guillotine) and powder fall on the deepening of breech block. So there is no need to fill powder on the pan from powder flask. I do not pretend that this is true but just a hypothesis. What makes me think this way? Here is one picture show us ignition channel bending. So, there is not possibility to pierce cartridge by awl through the touch hole. It’s mean that cartridge should be cut of like on sharps rifle to make contact powder with ignition channel. Moreover recess width is too large. This suggests that this recess is designed to catch the powder falling out of the cartridge. This makes gunpowder falling from the edges to the center. By the way gun of absolutely similar design is in the museum of artillery in Saint-Petersburg

Matchlock 17th December 2014 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Michael, thank You for this great photos of breechloader. I think that cartridge for this gun was longer than breech thereby rear end of cartridge should be a little sticking out of the breech. When the breech block lift up it cut away rear end of the cartridge (like a guillotine) and powder fall on the deepening of breech block. So there is no need to fill powder on the pan from powder flask.

Hi Alexander,

Your idea sounds brilliant and at the same time both logical and very practical - thank you indeed!;):cool:
The only thing that still makes me ponder is that very spacious trough on top of the barrel, right around the touch hole area. Do you think it was possible that, when closing the breech shut and ripping open the paper of the cartridge, enough powder was pressed up out, and all the way through the thick iron barrel wall, and the tiny touch hole, unto it actually filled that large pan-like trough?
I'm not sure about that thesis.:shrug:

But as you have the same gun in St. Petersburg - why not simple go there and practice with it, right there in the museum?:eek:

Best wishes as ever, my brillant friend,
Michael

Matchlock 19th December 2014 04:16 PM

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After that much artillery, here is a more handy 17th c. specimen: a fine breechloading wheellock rifle for hunting, Poland, ca. 1630.
It sold 25 October 2009 at Czerny's, Sarzana.

Best,
Michael


cel7 10th April 2015 09:07 PM

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Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I live in the Netherlands and have a broad interest in European history and warfare through the ages.

Few weeks ago i bought this cannon wich was original unearthed in the surrounding of Nijmegen. The man i bought it from, kept it in his barn for 40 years.

Maybe some of you have already seen it on a other forum where i posted it.

I saw this great tread about 15e century cannons, so perhaps may recognize one of the members this specific type. I have already received some very good info on the other forum but maybe someone can tell if there is a name for this type of short cannon and what the purpose was (defensive, offensive?).

It's Forged, 54cm long and the bore has a caliber of 11,5cm. Its a breech loader with an internal ring in the breech end. The strange thing is, and i can not find it on other ones, that it has zigzag decoration on the rings. Not all the way around but 3/4 of the diameter. My gues is that the part that lay in the mount was left smooth. According to a specialist on the other forum "not arsenal made". What is your opinion?

Marcus den toom 11th April 2015 08:13 AM

Hi my fellow Dutchman :)
Welcome to this forum and congratulations on that amazing breech loading cannon. I never saw this one before, it looks like a cannon i found in this illustration from the manuscript "Ms. germ. qu. 14 (Ausst. 48) - Rüst- und Feuerwerksbuch" Made in around the 1500s. That decoration was in use quit a while if i am not mistaken, but i too never saw it on such a cannon before. I would however dare to say that this cannon was originally made somewhere in Germany, but correct me (anyone) if i am wrong)

http://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt....tleinfo/3656793



cel7 11th April 2015 09:29 AM

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Thanks Marcus, that's a very interesting book!
Found these pictures of examples in the Army museum in Brussel, look also very similar.

Marcus den toom 15th April 2015 01:06 PM

Hi Cel7,

Those are indeed very nice ;)
It seems that the national military museum in the Netherlands that just reopend has some beautiful stuff as well. I still need to plan my visit.
Could you please send me a personal message (i can't send one to you, your acount is ristricted somehow).

Those at the Belgium museum are generally dated to 1450s, but i would date them to be somewhat more recent at 1490-1500s.

These canons do match as well and can be found at Harley Ms 4425 at page 139R (link, right top side you can select the page) http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer..._ms_4425_fs001r

I wish i could show the picture here, but i am no longer allowed to use my trusted picture uploader... and i don't understand how i can upload pictures from my pc anymore, sorry about that. :shrug:

Best,
Marcus

Marcus den toom 15th April 2015 01:09 PM

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Figured it out, i think.. sadly i had to reduce the quality of the picture for it to fit the forums specs.

fernando 15th April 2015 05:34 PM

Dear Marcus,
I am surprised that, after a while, you are not acquainted with the forum 'Manage Attachments' features, placed in the the 'Aditional Options' section, when you submit a post.
Haven't you read this:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14688.
You will find that the pictures size allowed is the most convenient for a full screen.
If anything wrong, just tell ;)
MVG

Spiridonov 8th August 2017 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Michael, thank you! Its AMAZING!
Looks like hangonne from trattato of Ghiberti Lorenzo http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldW.../b.228/main.htm

http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldW...itti/index.html

Sorry, I have made mistake. Manuscript was written by Ghiberti Bonaccorso but not Ghiberti Lorenzo http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECH....3224&wx=0.1988


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