Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Breech loading 1450-1550 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7364)

Matchlock 18th October 2010 01:51 PM

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much for deleting those posts containing erraneous thoughts that were not mine! ;) You sure did a great job.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 18th October 2010 02:02 PM

Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 26th October 2010 03:31 PM

Touchhole and Shutting Lug on the 'Cartridge' of a Breech-Loading Pistol of ca. 1540
 
1 Attachment(s)
Author's photos taken in the Hofrüstkammer Vienna.

Swordfish 31st October 2010 10:09 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael


Hallo,

The chambers or cartidges of breech loading handguns were not loded with powder and plug. The attached photo is taken from an article of Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen und Kostümkunde (Volume 9 of 1922, No.4), a standard work on arms and armour, which should be familiar to any who can read German. The photo shows two chambers of breech loading handguns of the 15th Century in the collection of the Berlin armoury. Both chambers contain the original charge of powder and lead bullet. This is a clear indication that at least chambers of small bore were loaded with a lead bullet, and the bullet was not pushed awkward in the rear of the barrel before inserting the chamber.

Best wishes

Susi

Matchlock 1st November 2010 04:24 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Hi Susi and welcome here, :)

Thank you for your interesting input from the Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde. I have been a member of their society for 30 years and own all their volumes from 1897 thru 2010.

First, these are by no means exchangebale breeches for 'handguns' but for cannon! Portable handguns of the 15th century had small bores of ca. 12-16 mm and their breech chamber never had handles; they had no grips at all and and an overall length of only ca. 6-8 cm. Please cf. the measurements of the 1540 Passau arquebus breech chamber you cited!

Second, these seem to be exceptions to the rule. For these unregulated ages, almost anything was possible in general. As I noted though earlier in this thread, we know of other loaded breech loading cannon chambers only containing powder and wooden plug, and attached I repost my own photos of one of them. The rest of the original handle can bee seen.
Similar ones were found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, sunken in 1545, also just loaded with powder and plug.

'Nando, my dear friend, would you mind posting good images and measurements of your ca. 1440 fine cannon chamber as this is almost identical to the ones preserved in Berlin? :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

fernando 1st November 2010 05:16 PM

2 Attachment(s)
There you are :)
Bore about 30 mm.
Length 230 mm.
Width at base: 65 mm.
Weight: 3,135 Kg.

.. The wooden set up picture is a bonus ;)

.

Matchlock 1st November 2010 05:47 PM

Thank you, 'Nando, ;)

And congratulations!

Best,
Michl

Matchlock 1st November 2010 05:53 PM

Another argument for my theory that breechloading cannon chambers did not normally contain the ball:

As we can see, most of them taper and narrow towards the fore end, in order to be shoved into the barrel and tightly fit. So I think that, had they contained to ball, the latter would have been of too small caliber to match the barrel. :)

Any comments much welcome!

Best,
Michael

Swordfish 1st November 2010 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
There you are :)
Bore about 30 mm.
Length 230 mm.
Width at base: 65 mm.
Weight: 3,135 Kg.

.. The wooden set up picture is a bonus ;)

.



Hallo,

it doesn`t matter if these are chambers of small cannons, the
interesting fact is that they were loaded with a bullet. If even
chambers of cannons were loaded in this way, surely the
chambers of small handguns, where the chamber and barrel
have exactly the same bore, were loaded with a bullet.

Best wishes

Matchlock 1st November 2010 07:28 PM

Sorry,

Do you completely ignore the evidence photos I posted? :confused:

m

Swordfish 1st November 2010 07:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Sorry,

Do you completely ignore the evidence photos I posted? :confused:

m


I have never expressed any doubt that chambers of cannons were
loaded with a plug. I refer always to chambers of handguns.
Confused ?

Matchlock 1st November 2010 11:05 PM

Oh yes, I definitely am.

Any evidence produced?

And why, in your opinion, should breech loading of handguns differ from cannon?

m

Matchlock 3rd November 2010 01:54 AM

Swordfish,

Are you there?! :)

m

Spiridonov 15th November 2010 06:41 AM

Does anybody have photos of these breech-loading handgonne?

"breech loading handgonne, chamber missing, late 1400's. length 1,460 mm, cal 18 mm "
from
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm

fernando 15th November 2010 01:58 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi Alexander.
Is this the same thing?
This is included in a PDF document with 186 pages, that i can send you by e-mail, if you are interested.

.

Spiridonov 15th November 2010 02:24 PM

Thank you, Fernando!
Quote:
his is included in a PDF document with 186 pages, that i can send you by e-mail, if you are interested.

Yes, I am interesting in... My e-mail is Spiridonov12@yandex.ru

fernando 15th November 2010 06:11 PM

Hi Alexander,
I didn't realize the file was so heavy and not possible to send by regular email.
So i have sent it through a special email system. I hope it reaches you any time from now. When you get it please confirm that you can open the file.

Matchlock 15th November 2010 06:55 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Is this the same thing?
.


No, 'Nando,

It's another but very similiar item, and your scans are great, thank you so much! :)

I attach a better image of the gun Alexender meant.

Best,
Michl

Spiridonov 15th November 2010 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Alexander,
I didn't realize the file was so heavy and not possible to send by regular email.
So i have sent it through a special email system. I hope it reaches you any time from now. When you get it please confirm that you can open the file.

Thank you. I have got it . Thanks for Michael too
:)

fernando 15th November 2010 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
... and your scans are great, thank you so much! :) ...


Have you got the article were tey came from, Michl ?

Matchlock 15th November 2010 09:07 PM

No, 'Nando,

I don't.

So please try and mail me the document as well.

Best,
Michl

fernando 15th November 2010 09:23 PM

On its way, Michl.
Hope it works.


DONE !
Please confirm when you get it.


.

Spiridonov 16th November 2010 04:42 AM

Michael, I can dowload it at my FTP if you need...

Matchlock 16th November 2010 08:53 PM

Thank you so much, 'Nando, :)

I received it.

Had you told me that is was all about a series of articles in the ZWHK, I could have spared you a lot of time because I got all the original volumes and have been a member of the society for more than 30 years.

Thank you as much, Alexender, :) for your kind offer!

Some select assessments and termination in these articles by now have become obsolete.

Best,
Michl

Spiridonov 1st December 2010 03:37 PM

6 Attachment(s)
We may see the thickening in the form of balls on these stock. It is a very common element of staffs in XV century.

Spiridonov 1st December 2010 03:38 PM

6 Attachment(s)
else

Matchlock 2nd December 2010 12:36 AM

Perfectly right, Alexander, :)

Your input clearly confirms the theory I formlerly posted stating that all contemporary works of arts and crafts unanimously reflected the style common to the respective period - in short: Gothic gun barrels generally looked like contemporary architectural towers and columns!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 2nd December 2011 11:11 PM

6 Attachment(s)
A wrought-iron breech-loading ship cannon, ca. 1480-1500.

m

Matchlock 2nd December 2011 11:18 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Two Portuguese bronze breech-loading cannon pieces, early 16th c. each, and obviously two from a series.

m

VANDOO 3rd December 2011 04:02 AM

3 Attachment(s)
HERE ARE A FEW MORE PICTURES, HOPEFULLY NOT POSTED ALREADY., TWO PICTURES OF A OLD PRINT. AND DRAWING SHOWING LOAD FOR GUN.


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