Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Swords of Jolo Sulu 3 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2385)

D Wilke 14th May 2006 12:06 PM

Swords of Jolo Sulu 3
 
7 Attachment(s)
Guys, I'm posting this for another new enthusiast here who has picked up these two blades. Neither has a seperate gangya. The carving on the broken scabbard is of the type that the few locals who seems to know anything said was of an old variety, not as old the carving on the one I posted previously but old enough that they said there is no one around who could reproduce it (questionable). He also would like any and all info you can give him reference his new blades.

First one follows

Dan

D Wilke 14th May 2006 12:10 PM

And the Second
 
5 Attachment(s)
Here's the second. Incredible amount of grain in this one.

jamesj975 15th May 2006 04:22 AM

Doc
 
Hello all I am a friend of Dan Wilke. We posted some pics of some Kris that I recently purchased. I am looking for any kind of feed back on these. I am new to the collection and I am learning. Any thing would be of help to me. Thank you for your time. Jack

jamesj975 15th May 2006 04:23 AM

Doc
 
Hello all, I am a friend of Dan Wilke. We posted some pics of some Kris that I recently purchased. I am looking for any kind of feed back on these. I am new to the collection and I am learning. Any thing would be of help to me. Thank you for your time. Jack

Spunjer 15th May 2006 11:57 AM

excellent kalis, IMO. if we have to go by cato's book (btw, we do that a lot here since it's the only book ever written dedicated to the moro swords), those are indeed a more recent, as in post 1930 and later, blade. it's really hard to tell whether the outfit itself are redressed or not, but nevertheless, they are IMHO, are "true" krisses, and not made for stalls in Aldevinco.

both have the classic horse hoof pommel, with either nickel or silver asang-asang. the first one, known as kalis seko, has 17 waves, luks, whatever. again, based on the book this symbolizes a snake in motion (also, the more waves, the more potent it is).

the second one, known as kalis taluseko looks like a no nonsense battle sword. the lamination is indeed incredible. handle looks to be made out of banati.

nothing much i can add here. again, like ian said, go with what the locals think it is. we're just a bunch of book nerds here basing most of what we know from books and each other. kinda like learning brazilian jiujitsu from the books, lol...

BluErf 15th May 2006 02:38 PM

Hi,

I thought the first kris had an obviously separate ganja?

Ferguson 15th May 2006 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
Hi,

I thought the first kris had an obviously separate ganja?


Both are very nice sundang James!

A couple of mine have a chiseled line that makes them look like they have a separate gangya. This one is similar in style to the second one.
Thanks for sharing these with us.
Steve Ferguson




Battara 15th May 2006 08:11 PM

I second Spunger's observations. These are newer post 1930s, when separable gangas disappeared. As Ferguson has demonstrated, lines were added later on some pieces to make it look like a separable ganga.

jamesj975 16th May 2006 04:01 AM

DOC
 
The first blade everyone is looking at is in fact one piece. The locals say that the two piece blade is usually older than one hundred years old. Wilke explained that there have been one piece blades found here that did date back to a hundred years ago, but were not very common. Hard to tell. Dan wanted me to thank you all for your input. He is heading home for a while but may return soon. I also appreciate the information I'm getting for you guys. Thank you.

Spunjer 16th May 2006 11:12 AM

i've heard of one piece blades that are more than 100 years as well, but those ones are maranao...

D Wilke 19th May 2006 07:29 AM

Seperate gangya
 
Back home and up on line again. While I know that the rule seems to be seperate gangya = pre 1930, however I got the sense from most of those that I talked to in Sulu reference these that the seperate gangya was more of a guarantee of it being older, however they felt that the one piece blade was also made by many prior to the magic 1930 mark also. On at least two occasions I had individuals show me one piece kalis that they claimed were in their families for 5 or 6 generations. Now while the Tausug are not above stretching the truth, they are very particular about two things, reciprical gift-giving and their family trees. I should mention that neither of the two blades were offered for sale.

Just another quick note before I forget - the museum in Jolo is a bust for swords, they only had two and both were newer and in abysmal shape. The nicest weapons shown were pictures from the Field museum collection. Not even a spear, shield, or barung. Might have to donate one my mine when the time comes.
Dan

D Wilke 19th May 2006 07:31 AM

OB's sword
 
Sam and Jack, please post the photo's of OB's kris (beautiful lamination lines). They're in the My pictures folder.
Dan

Spunjer 19th May 2006 11:33 AM

Quote:
While I know that the rule seems to be seperate gangya = pre 1930, however I got the sense from most of those that I talked to in Sulu reference these that the seperate gangya was more of a guarantee of it being older, however they felt that the one piece blade was also made by many prior to the magic 1930 mark also.


thank you for that very interesting tidbit, dan. you were/are indeed in a unique postion to clarify a lot of what has been considered as half guess around here. looking forward to your future comments.

Quote:
Just another quick note before I forget - the museum in Jolo is a bust for swords, they only had two and both were newer and in abysmal shape. The nicest weapons shown were pictures from the Field museum collection. Not even a spear, shield, or barung. Might have to donate one my mine when the time comes.


that's a shame! i believe the university of mindanao in lanao has the most extensive collection of moro weapons in mindanao, if not, the whole archipelago. i remember the national museum had only 4 or 5 swords. :(

kai 20th May 2006 12:48 AM

Hello Dan,

Quote:
While I know that the rule seems to be seperate gangya = pre 1930, however I got the sense from most of those that I talked to in Sulu reference these that the seperate gangya was more of a guarantee of it being older, however they felt that the one piece blade was also made by many prior to the magic 1930 mark also.

A while back it was stated in this forum that there are still kris with separate gangya being made - not only in Indonesia but also in the Sulu archipelago. (This observation coming from Carlos if I remember correctly.) Could you folks on Jolo try to get further info along these lines?

While Stone's rule of thumb (separate gangya: likely pre-1930; integral gangya: most likely 20th c.) seems to work out ok most of the time for Filipino kris, we apparently have to take into account exceptions in both categories.

I still wonder how this integral gangya syndrome could spread that fast throughout Moroland (in just a few decades). I'd have expected a much more patchy/localized development with older pandays clinging to the traditional design until their demise...

Regards,
Kai

Bill 20th May 2006 02:44 AM

Wolviex, on the old forum, posted a one piece gangya from 1882: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002456.html

Battara 20th May 2006 08:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Wilke
Just another quick note before I forget - the museum in Jolo is a bust for swords, they only had two and both were newer and in abysmal shape. The nicest weapons shown were pictures from the Field museum collection. Not even a spear, shield, or barung. Might have to donate one my mine when the time comes.
Dan

Not shocking at all since most of those in the US were battlefield pickups and that there are more older PI kris in the US than in the PI.

BluErf 21st May 2006 05:43 AM

Oh, I see the line now... :) Thanks!


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