Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   A VERY DECORATED FLINTLOCK PISTOL FOR ID (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23339)

Cerjak 7th November 2017 05:55 PM

A VERY DECORATED FLINTLOCK PISTOL FOR ID
 
8 Attachment(s)
A VERY DECORATED FLINTLOCK PISTOL FOR ID
This pistol seems made for the export market ,I never saw before something similar with all these decorations : grotesque mask ,lion head , etc..
Any information about his origin or maker would be highly appreciated

This pistol seems made for the export market ,I never saw before something similar with all these decorations : grotesque mask ,lion head , etc..
Any information about his origin or maker would be highly appreciated

corrado26 7th November 2017 06:12 PM

A gunmaker TWIGTON in LONDON is unknown to me and not mentioned in the NEUE STÖCKEL too. So the origin of this pistol is somewhat mysterious the less so since there are no British proof- and viewmarks on the barrel. Although the front end of the triggerguard looks very English I think that this pistol has probably been made by a Liège gunmaker for the Osmanic Empire. Using names of English gunmakers was an old practise of the Liège gunmakers in order to simulate good English quality.
corrado26

fernando 7th November 2017 06:43 PM

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I dare say that there will hardly be a description of this pistol origin more accurate than the one presented by corrado26.
In any case, a very, very nice pistol, Jean-Luc :cool:.
Say, are those some letters on the tang ?

.

Cerjak 7th November 2017 06:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Yes Corrado like you my guess is a pistol for export market , Fernando may be a date ? Please see this new pics

Fernando K 7th November 2017 09:54 PM

Hello

Generally the Belgian arms for export have the punch of the Bank of Liège, but to hide the origin they are in the lower part of the cannon. You would have to dismantle it and see what it is.

Affectionately. Fernando K

fernando 8th November 2017 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
... Fernando may be a date ? Please see this new pics

Yes, more like a number than a decoration floral. But then, even if it is a number or a date, could also be illusory :shrug:.

Pukka Bundook 8th November 2017 06:51 PM

It Is a very nice and very different pistol Cerjak.
Very nice silver work and such.

Dating is rather difficult, as it ha selements popular from differing ages, like the heavy moulding around the trigger-guard, (earlier 18th C mostly, ) and the pineapple which is later, 1780's and on.
Then the style of the grip is more early 18th C but the sideplates for the sidenails say early 19th C.
I wonder, with the very nice decoration, Is there a chance it was made in India??
I ask as Tippu Sultan had very nice arms made for himself, so Indian craftsmen could certainly be up to the job.
It sounds like the maker had heard of Twigg, at any rate!

Very best,
Richard.

thinreadline 9th November 2017 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
It Is a very nice and very different pistol Cerjak.
Very nice silver work and such.

Dating is rather difficult, as it ha selements popular from differing ages, like the heavy moulding around the trigger-guard, (earlier 18th C mostly, ) and the pineapple which is later, 1780's and on.
Then the style of the grip is more early 18th C but the sideplates for the sidenails say early 19th C.
I wonder, with the very nice decoration, Is there a chance it was made in India??
I ask as Tippu Sultan had very nice arms made for himself, so Indian craftsmen could certainly be up to the job.
It sounds like the maker had heard of Twigg, at any rate!

Very best,
Richard.


Yes indeed I would opt for India , with the name being a hybrid of Twigg and Manton perhaps.

corrado26 9th November 2017 11:46 AM

I think it would help a lot to dismantle the barrel from the stock to see which marks are on the underside
corrado26

fernando 9th November 2017 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
I think it would help a lot to dismantle the barrel from the stock to see which marks are on the underside
corrado26

If ever there are any marks in there ...

Pukka Bundook 9th November 2017 02:26 PM

Another reason to Think possibly India, is that the engraving on the pineapple finial does not look European, in fact the only engraving that does look European or English,are all the screws, and they are beautifully done, and possibly the side-plates, but the latter in design are more 17th C at latest in style.
I am not out to find fault, as I do like it, but so mixed in styles appears Eastern at any rate.
The lock looks a very competent piece, and has a good finish. I would like to see the lock internals and the mortise for it in the stock.

Best regards,
Richard.

Cerjak 9th November 2017 06:19 PM

Many thanks to all for the comments ,I will try to remove the barrel this weekend, I 'm also curious to know if there is any marks who could help for the maker identification .
Best
CERJAK
PS from the same place I bought this second pistol :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23346

Cerjak 10th November 2017 11:07 AM

I have removed the barrel and lock but unfortunately there is no one mark who could help for the identification.

fernando 10th November 2017 11:41 AM

One more step and you remove the lock ... just to check :cool:

Cerjak 10th November 2017 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
One more step and you remove the lock ... just to check :cool:

Fernando ,
Same for the lock no mark

Pukka Bundook 10th November 2017 02:01 PM

A photo of the lock internals and lock mortise would be very much appreciated, Cerjak. :)

Best wishes,
Richard.

Cerjak 11th November 2017 12:29 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook
A photo of the lock internals and lock mortise would be very much appreciated, Cerjak. :)

Best wishes,
Richard.

Dear Richard

This is the pics
It seems very strange that there is no one marks ,this pistol has many massif silver embellishment but the barrel and lock are not signed.
I'm wondering what was the purpose of the maker.
Best
Jean-Luc

Pukka Bundook 11th November 2017 01:43 PM

It Is a very nicely made lock, Jean-Luc.

From the outside it looks English but I see it has a separate pan attached to the lock plate, so has to be either Continental, or a copy of Continental.
I wonder why the bushed hole for the pan retaining screw? It looks very clean and well done but a bit recent possibly?
Does the touch-hole have a liner fitted? .... I am wondering about a possible re-conversion to flint from percussion.
Does the engraving on the frizzen/steel & cock and rest of the piece?

The lack of markings on the barrel and lock still say this could possibly be Very high-end Indian work.
It is a lovely and well designed piece.
If possible at some time, please show us the mortise for the lock. Inletting tells us a lot about where a gun may come from.

Best regards,

Richard.

Yes, On looking again at your first photos Jean -Luc, I see the pan and cock show none of the patina we see on the barrel.
The pan and cock and frizzen appear to have been added more recently.
It is a high-end lock with lovely springs.
When this re-conversion was done I do not know, but it is a very tidy job.
This also opens up the possibility that the lock is a high-quality English trade lock, and the "continental pan attachment" could have come about in its re-conversion.

A lovely and enigmatic piece!!

Richard.

Fernando K 11th November 2017 07:52 PM

Hello

The thesis of a percussion conversion to flint has no handle. There is nothing in the canyon that has been percussion. The lock, with false cup, is consistent, if as we maintain, the weapon is Belgian or continental
The different coloration or patina between the barrel and the lock is due to the fact that the barrel has been cleaned of its rust, to highlight the silver incrustations, which become inexorably black with the passage of time. The presence of caries or pitting, next to the shiny metal, prove it.

affectionately Fernando K

Pukka Bundook 11th November 2017 08:01 PM

Dear Fernando,

The lock would have originally been flint, and at some time altered to percussion, Then, later back to flint.
The easiest method of converting to percussion, is with the drum and nipple arrangement. This entails drilling out the touchhole to a larger size, tapping, and screwing in a drum containing the nipple.
This type of conversion was very common, and these days Many are being converted back, as a flint is worth more generally then a converted percussion piece.
I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.

The patination on the barrel and the rest of the lock are consistent, and much more visible than on the (newer I think) cock , pan and steel, (or frizzen).
Yes you are very correct, a lock made in Europe very often had a separate pan fitted, as I said in my post above.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

Fernando K 11th November 2017 09:41 PM

Dear Pukka

What he manifests is imaginative. there is no record of the successive transformations.

Affectionately. Fernando K

fernando 11th November 2017 09:56 PM

Although tocayo, this is not the first time i hear about 'successive' modifications. I confess that this 'diagnosis' i once received for a pistol of mine was doubtful for me, but ...

Fernando K 11th November 2017 11:44 PM

Dear namesake

Of course, there are transformations. But in this case it is not theory, it must be demonstrated based on elements that are mentioned and that can be seen in the piece ...

A hug

Fernando K

Pukka Bundook 12th November 2017 12:50 AM

Fernando K, my dear friend,

At times I am baffled by our use of a common language,
To me, it means one thing, to others something very different.

I will try again to say what I mean, and will thereafter in this case, "forever hold my peace". :)

What I have to say it this; The lock and barrel have the same patina.
The cock and frizzen And pan appear to not have this same patina, they look cleaner and newer to me. Not brand new, but newer.. The pan still has the milling marks on the inside.

To me, this can mean that these parts are Possibly replacements.

I will not go into Why they would be replaced, but logic dictates that they were either damaged or missing.

There my friend. I have done my best, and must leave it now.
I hope to at least to be understandable in what I say, and will not fall out if we disagree. :) :)
I am not saying I am right, this is just what I think.

Kind regards,
Richard.


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