Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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fernando 19th October 2017 03:08 PM

Old 21st December 2016, 12:25 PM #300

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Bravo !!!This thread is astounding...and has just gone through 100 thousand viewings...
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Victrix 24th January 2018 08:20 PM

Marks on 18thC Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre
 
2 Attachment(s)
This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

fernando 25th January 2018 08:22 PM

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I woldn't know about the four dots mark, but i guess this is more a symbol than properly a maker's mark.
You could also find the four dots in early hand cannons; maybe just a concidence.

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Victrix 25th January 2018 08:43 PM

Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?

fernando 26th January 2018 02:16 PM

It would take someone with more knowledge to answer your questions; even the assumption that the (four) dots are not maker's marks but a period fashion symbol ... or both. ´
When i bought my cannons i have made some search and resumed that the four dots were typical marks of 15th century short cannons; something certainly not applicable to those in your sword.
Whether there is a time line linking both, i ignore.
In any case, why don't you show us the whole of your sword ?

Victrix 26th January 2018 02:30 PM

Fernando, I presented the sword in a separate thread previously. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I thought I would follow up on the four dots mark in this thread dealing specifically with marks, and see if someone recognized them. Are your [small] cannons from a particular geographic location? Could they be the mark of a foundry producing iron? Perhaps the cannons were cast at this foundry and then marked accordingly?

fernando 26th January 2018 05:30 PM

1 Attachment(s)
These (three in all) examples are in principle Spanish. They were forged, not cast; those appeared much later. The four dots were surely the mark of the workshop but, as you know, very often early marks represented symbols, magic and so. I remember now who said these were 15th century marks.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...708&postcount=3
I would not associate these dots with the ones in your sword; after all, dots are a symbol easy to occur everywhere and in different periods, as also in more complex setups, like in edged weapons.

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Victrix 26th January 2018 06:31 PM

I think the three dots with sickle marks tend to be associated with Northern Italy and may represent the Holy Trinity or some say, even grapes.

Maybe the four dots represent some kind of Gothic quatrefoil/kleeblatt which in turn may represent a cross or the four gospels in the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). It may just be a kind of superstitious good luck sign or blessing. I was just wondering because because it seemed to replace the ”Pottenstein” engraved example in Wagner’s book.

ariel 26th January 2018 09:07 PM

Victrix,
Please show the entire sword and separately the handle.
There seems to be a twist that pushes me toward Georgian Khmali. I may be wrong, but need better pics.

Victrix 26th January 2018 10:24 PM

Ariel, I may have expressed myself in a clumsy way. Only the first sword is mine. It was presented in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I found the picture of the second sword in the forum elsewhere and posted it only for comparison to show the gurda marks. My question is if anyone is familiar with the four dots mark shown on the sabre in the first picture.

fernando 6th February 2018 01:49 PM

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Just one last note on the four dots symbol ... as once posted HERE


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Victrix 6th February 2018 05:58 PM

Yes there is that mark again. Many thanks, Fernando. Interesting. Until I’m enlightened further I’m inclined to believe that the mark is either religious (cross symbol) or something marking good iron/steel. Or could be both: a foundry mark by a religious smith! :)

Victrix 10th February 2018 03:32 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
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No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

Victrix 12th February 2018 07:50 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.


I encountered the four dots mark on a sabre at the Warzaw Army Museum (see picture) believed to have belonged to Hungarian noble man Stephan Bathory who was Prince of Transylvania 1571-76 and King of Poland 1575-86. He is credited with bringing the hussars (the light cavalry, not the winged, variety) to Poland.

Billman 6th March 2018 04:56 PM

Edge tool or weapon?
 
6 Attachment(s)
Hi
I joined this forum some years ago, but not been active recently as I had lost track of things when my old computer crashed. My interest is edge tools, primarily the billhook, but also axes and sickles... Many edge tool makers also made weapons, and vice versa - the Klingenthal Royal Armoury works in Alsace became known as Coulaux et Cie, taillandiers (edge tool makers)..

Thus there may well be a great overlap in makers marks - tools are way undervalued as historical artifacts, and many agricultural tools are mis-sold as weapons - often by reputable dealers who should know better... The number of battle axes and beheading axes that are just specialist tools, is beyond belief...

There is an excellent Wiki site showing many of the touch marks used by Austrian scythe smiths, and which probably includes Styria/Slovenia...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste...%C3%96sterreich

Below Are some of the marks used by Austrian smiths, found on axes etc..

Also the main reason for getting my account here active once more - I have just bought a Polish hewing axe, with a sword shaped touch mark that I recognise, but cannot remember - can anyone identify it for me???

Billman 6th March 2018 05:33 PM

Chisel makers
 
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This German site has stamps of edge tool makers who made wood chisels - they would have made other tools, and some may have also made weapons...

http://alte-beitel.de/index.php/warenzeichen

and thus: Franz Damisch, Ybbsitz (Austria)

chregu 6th March 2018 05:52 PM

Blacksmith's mark (Blade mark) Styria Austria
 
can be found on axes and Halbart
were used until the 19th century

http://www.michaelblank.at/collection-of-edgded-media/

sorry for my bad english

Victrix 11th March 2018 07:21 PM

Many thanks for posting those blacksmiths’ marks? Does anyone have a list of sword/bladesmiths’ marks from Styria?

fernando 12th March 2018 12:15 PM

Could they have some publication covering marks in the Graz Museum ?


https://www.museum-joanneum.at/


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