Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Unusual Indian dagger / short sword (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23032)

Royston 22nd August 2017 08:45 PM

Unusual Indian dagger / short sword
 
7 Attachment(s)
I have been following the thread on the "Karud" with much interest.
It has prompted me to dig this out and ask for name suggestions.

Mail-piercing, double pointed, curved, single-edged short sword or long dagger should cover it.

48 cm / 19 ins long with a 38cm 13.75 ins single-edged blade which is approximately 1/4 ins thick near the hilt.

Mail-piercing tip which is on the end of an "extra" or second tip.

Heavily decorated blade with bird heads, lions ( or wolves ) and deer. The decoration is repeated on both sides of the blade.

Hilt is steel with two colours of horn as grips.

I think it is too good for a tourist piece so will call it a rich man's hunting dagger.

All comments welcome.
Regards
Roy

estcrh 22nd August 2017 09:20 PM

These come from Afghanistan I believe and are fairly new.

Rich 22nd August 2017 09:57 PM

That tip looks very fragile to me to be a mail piercer. Looks like it would break off on first use. Otherwise an interesting blade.

Rich

Battara 22nd August 2017 10:17 PM

I agree - looks unusable since it will break near the tip under stress and is more like a fantasy piece - maybe more like a modern custom dagger made to look old?

estcrh 23rd August 2017 12:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
I agree - looks unusable since it will break near the tip under stress and is more like a fantasy piece - maybe more like a modern custom dagger made to look old?
I have a very similar one...somewere.....I will try to find it, surprisingly the steel is really very strong but I think these are modern made, I have seen a few for sale in the last couple of years.

Bob A 23rd August 2017 06:16 AM

I agree also. Serious mechanical drawback in the design.

I've never seen anything remotely resembling this sort of construct, which is not to say it doesn't exist, obviously, but as to utility, meh.

Royston 23rd August 2017 09:04 AM

Thanks Gents, you are probably right.

In it's defence though, I would say two things.

The tip is not flimsy, I think it would penetrate mail.

As to functionality, a quick look at the archives here and on google for any Indian weapon containing the words Flamboyant, Ritual, Temple or Malabar will produce equally "impractical" swords.
Not to mention a few Naga weapons.

Estcrh, if you find yours I will be interested to see a photoraph please.

Cheers
Roy

estcrh 23rd August 2017 09:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royston
Thanks Gents, you are probably right.

In it's defence though, I would say two things.

The tip is not flimsy, I think it would penetrate mail.

As to functionality, a quick look at the archives here and on google for any Indian weapon containing the words Flamboyant, Ritual, Temple or Malabar will produce equally "impractical" swords.
Not to mention a few Naga weapons.

Estcrh, if you find yours I will be interested to see a photoraph please.

Cheers
Roy
Roy, I will find it for sure but it will probably take a few days...or weeks...so many boxes!!! Your example is much nicer than mine, as it has wood grips that are not riveted but seem to be attached with some type of adhesive.

Victrix 23rd August 2017 09:37 AM

The mail piercing blades that I've seen typically have quite narrow and very pointed blades with a slight taper towards the hilt. This knife seems to have a rather thick point which might struggle to penetrate the mail. I could imagine the knife used to penetrate plate armour and then use a downward movement to slice it open like a can opener? But it seems the blade lacks a sharp edge?

mariusgmioc 23rd August 2017 12:25 PM

A blunt and honest answer:

the blade is tourist crap.

Sorry!

Royston 23rd August 2017 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
A blunt and honest answer:

the blade is tourist crap.

Sorry!



Glad that is sorted out then
:D

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 24th August 2017 04:06 PM

The sword n' gun makers in Afghanistan have been turning stuff like this out for ages ... The carvings whilst coarsely executed are reminiscent of finer work... actually the souk in Chicken street Kabul is full of these and similar, whilst down the road really good work is being made with Koftgari and all. In other shops close by you can find genuine old examples. I would agree on tourist material here, however, these are not weak blades and would go through most heavy leather clothing ...The blades are strong. After a while these are easy to spot as they have a look about them of late Qajar carvings naively done..interesting that they are being made in the same old way as the originals were... and often apprentice pieces ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall 24th August 2017 05:03 PM

This is an interesting looking khanjhar (I cannot resist noting the broad use of this term as the concurrent thread on the karud term has been mentioned).
I typically try to avoid the 'tourist' moniker, and as has been noted, there are distinctly seen differences in quality of weapons produced in ethnic character which MAY be acquired by tourists, but in many cases by locals as well.

The curious and thickened 'barb' at the tip of this blade seems more for threatening 'effect' visually than practically intended. Burton (1884) described the folly of barbed or serrated blades in that these became imbedded in the victim and not being able to be withdrawn, left the user weaponless.
Naturally, no edged weapon was intended to directly penetrate plate armor, and those intended for armor piercing were thickened at the notably narrowed spear type point to enter mail through opening a link.

Plate armor was bashed to compromise it enough to possibly open a breech, but typically penetration of edged weapons was in areas not covered by the armor. In any case, in India and Central Asia, plate was not worn as a rule, and 'piercing' was directed toward heavily layered textiles or leather.

With the obvious matter of ingress and egress the point of this curious weapon, though dramatically threatening, renders it unlikely as a weapon, at least in the usual manner. Still, the prospect of having that nasty barb imbedded in someone is a dreadful consideration.

Eric, well noted instances, and thank you so much for encouraging the use of the search feature here by using key words. We have all spent many years together here compiling an impressive archives of data, which is a valuable resource which is most helpful in research.

estcrh 14th September 2017 06:50 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royston
Thanks Gents, you are probably right.

In it's defence though, I would say two things.

The tip is not flimsy, I think it would penetrate mail.

As to functionality, a quick look at the archives here and on google for any Indian weapon containing the words Flamboyant, Ritual, Temple or Malabar will produce equally "impractical" swords.
Not to mention a few Naga weapons.

Estcrh, if you find yours I will be interested to see a photoraph please.

Cheers
Roy
Roy as promised. A very similar one but much plainer and mine. Yours is of a much higher quality as I mentioned.

estcrh 14th September 2017 06:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Plate armor was bashed to compromise it enough to possibly open a breech, but typically penetration of edged weapons was in areas not covered by the armor. In any case, in India and Central Asia, plate was not worn as a rule, and 'piercing' was directed toward heavily layered textiles or leather.

Jim, in Indian plate armor was used quite extensively, char-aia were common as were mail and plate shirts, even European style cuirass, with mail shirts / hauberk being quite common as well. The Afghans did not seem to use plate armor very much and mail armor was not as common as far as I can tell.


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