Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Koummya with nice(?) blade (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22974)

shayde78 3rd August 2017 10:02 PM

Koummya with nice(?) blade
 
3 Attachment(s)
I finally found a koummya with a blade nicer than I have seen in person. The thing that seems incongruent to me is the fact that the scabbard is a muddled mess. That leads me to think I am overestimating the quality of the blade, or that the blade was refitted with furniture of lesser quality.

What are your thoughts? For scale, the tiles are 1'x1'.

Thanks all!

shayde78 3rd August 2017 10:05 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Also, while on the topic, I have had this other example that, although the blade seems not too impressive, the ornamentation on the scabbard seems quite well done. Additionally, both sides are treated with the same decoration. The feature I'd like to get feedback on are the suspension rings. They are as nicely designed as the rest, and are fully integrated into the scabbard. I haven't seen this element before...is it specific to a distinct form/period?

Cheers.

Sajen 3rd August 2017 11:15 PM

For me, and I am not an expert by this sort of daggers, is the first one the real deal. Look to the worn holes for the carrying strip, this dagger was long time in use, so also the blade for real use and the worn and (tribal) repaired scabbard. I would choose the first one! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

Kubur 4th August 2017 09:19 AM

If you want some brights comments, you should use a flash!
:)

motan 4th August 2017 12:47 PM

Hi Detlef,
I think the blade IS good, but probably foreign made, because of the a-typical bevels. Usually, sides have an unsharpened edge of different lengths: long on convex side and short on the concave side. In yours, the bevels start at the same place, but there is an additional one on the convex side. The forte looks very European-like in a straight hunting dagger.
The scabbard and hilt look like they have been of good quality, but are worn beyond recognition. So, besides the poor condition of the outer part, it probably IS or at least was a good and old dagger.
This assymetry in all koummyas is food for thought. I do not know how curved daggers were used in general, but both sides are usually sharpened in the same way. So, both sides can be equally used for cutting. In koummyas, it appears that the main edge for cutting is the concave edge. Not only because it is longer, but also because in examples where the blade is deformed by re-sharpening, it is the inner edge that has been mostly re-sharpened. A throat cutter??

motan 4th August 2017 12:52 PM

Hi Shayde78,
I am sorry to say that, but the blade is NOT a good blade and the whole is typical of a koummya made for the tourist trade.
Keep looking and read references in the forum for some good examples. :)

Sajen 4th August 2017 03:45 PM

Hi Eytan,

I think you mixed up here something, both Koummya belong to shayde78, I only commented with my limited knowledge. ;)

But you seems to confirm what I've said. And yes, I think also that the first dagger have a trade blade, like Kubur I would like to see better pictures.

And like you I think that the second piece is a so called tourist dagger, cheaply worked with steel sheet blade.

Better pictures would be really helpful.

Regards,
Detlef

Helleri 4th August 2017 09:47 PM

Can't hardly see that first blade. I took the image to GIMP and applied contrast mask and some mild sharpening.


motan 5th August 2017 01:22 PM

Yes Detlef, I see my mistake. But everything I wrote is still valid, also with the new picture. The silver is soft and what happened to the rings shows it has been carried for many years. Probably a late 19th c. piece.

Sajen 6th August 2017 01:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by motan
Yes Detlef, I see my mistake. But everything I wrote is still valid, also with the new picture. The silver is soft and what happened to the rings shows it has been carried for many years. Probably a late 19th c. piece.



Agree complete with you! ;)

shayde78 6th August 2017 06:29 PM

Thank you all for the feedback. In the old blade (the first item pictured) there may be a maker's Mark under the grime at the base of the riccaso. I will try to get better pictures of that for you.

Regarding the second item: while I was fairly certain of the low quality of the blade, my real question was about the suspension rings which seem unique in my (admittedly) limited experience. Any feedback on this specific element?

Thanks again.

Sajen 6th August 2017 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shayde78
Regarding the second item: while I was fairly certain of the low quality of the blade, my real question was about the suspension rings which seem unique in my (admittedly) limited experience. Any feedback on this specific element?


Not uncommon, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...97&postcount=20

taken from this interesting thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=koummya

But like said, I am afraid that this piece is very recent. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Kubur 6th August 2017 07:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shayde78
Thank you all for the feedback. In the old blade (the first item pictured) there may be a maker's Mark under the grime at the base of the riccaso. I will try to get better pictures of that for you.
Thanks again.


It's normal. All the 19th c. koummya have imported blades.
Let's see if it's an English, French or Spanish blade...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shayde78
Regarding the second item: while I was fairly certain of the low quality of the blade, my real question was about the suspension rings which seem unique in my (admittedly) limited experience. Any feedback on this specific element?
Thanks again.


It's normal, this kind of koummya has this kind of suspension rings.

shayde78 12th August 2017 01:51 AM

2 Attachment(s)
So I've cleaned off enough grime to see the mark. It isn't complete, as it appears a portion has worn off. To me, it looks like the leg and three tail feathers of a bird(?). In this condition, abstract enough to be open to interpretation. I'm hoping someone with a good list of known marks can match it up to something.
As always, thanks for your insights.

Oh, and a picture of the full blade again. I know folks weren't too pleased with the prior pics, so I hope these prove more useful.

shayde78 15th August 2017 06:00 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Oops! I promised a better image of the blade, and instead uploaded two images of the mark (any thoughts on the mark, by the way??).

Here is the brighter image of the whole thing:

shayde78 25th August 2017 02:53 AM

Wow...no guesses regarding the maker's mark, eh?

shayde78 6th September 2017 02:32 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I found something that might be a similar mark; Juan Martinez of Toledo. The date seems way too old, however. Also, not an exact match, but I'm not sure how accurately these marks are transcribed.

Thoughts?

shayde78 25th October 2017 01:32 AM

Jim provided some thoughts on the maker's mark here (and many thanks, Jim!)

Since there doesn't seem to be a European connection, has anyone seen a bird mark used an blades from the Islamic world that would be consistent with this mark as shown in post #14?


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