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-   -   Two Indian Knives for interest and/or comment (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22786)

Miguel 6th June 2017 02:16 PM

Two Indian Knives for interest and/or comment
 
7 Attachment(s)
Hello Everyone,

The first one, I believe, is called a The O/L"Tigers Tooth" and has an O/L of 13 ins with a blade 8.5 ins lg x 4 ins wide at its widest part. the hilt is bone and the scabbard is of wood covered in leather with a brass chape.

The second one has a "Kukri" shaped blade with a pearl and greenstone hilt and short steel Quillon's. The O/L is 9.75 ins having a blade length of 6.5 ins. The scabbard is of wood covered in leather with a steel chape.
Thank you
Miguel

Miguel 9th June 2017 06:48 PM

Obviously not interesting enough for comment :o
Miguel

Rick 9th June 2017 08:11 PM

The blade of the second one is appealing visually.
My 2 cents.

Miguel 10th June 2017 03:25 PM

Thanks Rick :D

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 10th June 2017 05:02 PM

Here must be one of the Indian Classics... The Tiger Tooth... In my view one of the most efficient dagger blades ever made. Often with a reinforced tip for piercing armour/thick clothing and with chiselled blade making for a lighter stronger blade. I assume the tang goes right through to the typical 3 lobed pommel and there is one I saw with a tiger striped horn hilt ~ at 2 below..

See1. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2495
See2. http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s995_full.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Miguel 12th June 2017 01:24 PM

Thank you for your reply Ibrahiim and particularly for the links showing two very good examples of the "Tigers Tooth" dagger. Your assumption regarding the tang is correct.
Regards
Miguel

mariusgmioc 12th June 2017 03:02 PM

Hello Miguel,

Things are pretty clear for the Tiger Tooth dagger but I see no comments on the second one.

In my oppinion, the second one is a more artistic XX century Indian interpretation of a Khukuri, hence not an etnographically correct Indian knife. Yet, it appears to have a very well made, sturdy and effective blade.

If I were you, I would test the Tiger Tooth dagger for wootz, as most examples I have seen were made of wootz.

Regards,

Marius

Tatyana Dianova 13th June 2017 07:27 AM

For the second one please take a look here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...&highlight=pesh
By the way, there were very good Indian antique Kukris as well. There are some examples on the Kukri Forum. But this one is of course different.
The Tiger Tooth is pretty late too, I believe from the second half of the 19th century - beginning of 20th century.

Miguel 13th June 2017 06:34 PM

Thank you Marius for your reply, I had never thought of the second one as an Indian Kukri. I have always thought it was Indian made as a hunting knife for a European with it having quillons and a false edge. With regard to the first one I don't think it is wootz I cant see any pattern in the steel.

Thank you also Tatyana, the link was very interesting. I also agree with your dating.
Regards
Miguel

Gonzalo G 14th June 2017 03:24 AM

Hi Miguel,
Are you sure that the Tiger's Tooth has 4 inches (10cm) at the widest part of the blade? It seems disproportionate with its total lenght, but I can be mistaken. The surface of the blade looks as it could be made from multilaminated steel, but photos are tricky.
Regards

Rick 14th June 2017 04:43 AM

If you ever get bored with that kukri............. :)

Miguel 15th June 2017 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzalo G
Hi Miguel,
Are you sure that the Tiger's Tooth has 4 inches (10cm) at the widest part of the blade? It seems disproportionate with its total lenght, but I can be mistaken. The surface of the blade looks as it could be made from multilaminated steel, but photos are tricky.
Regards


Hello Gonzalo, well spotted, thanks for pointing it out I must be cracking up :D
I have checked again and the blade is 2 ins wide just below the hilt then 1.75 ins. Not sure about the blade looks like carbon steel to me.
Regards
Miguel

Gonzalo G 16th June 2017 09:09 AM

Thank you, Miguel. The multilamination can be made of many steels, and it was made in the old times from simple carbon steel. Several plates were forge-welded to make a blade.
Regards

mariusgmioc 16th June 2017 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Hello Gonzalo, well spotted, thanks for pointing it out I must be cracking up :D
I have checked again and the blade is 2 ins wide just below the hilt then 1.75 ins. Not sure about the blade looks like carbon steel to me.
Regards
Miguel


Hello Miguel,

Wootz IS carbon steel and when polished, it is practically undistinguishable from plain carbon steel.

I agree with the age of the blade suggested in previous postings and with the high probability it is not wootz. However, it remains a slight probability that the blade is older than it was estimated and it is made of wootz. And I would explore this possibility.

Anyhow, both are very nice and well made blades!
:)

Miguel 18th June 2017 01:34 PM

Hello Marius, thanks for you comments. When I have a little more time I will do as you suggest and test for wootz.

I have been checking some cleaners we use at home for various jobs and wonder if anyone of these would be suitable for etching the steel.
White vinegar.

Brick acid ( 19% HCl ).

Toilet cleaner ( 9% HCl )
Regards
Miguel

Ian 18th June 2017 05:05 PM

Miguel:

Apologies for jumping in here, but please do not use HCl. Others may have a better experience than I have, but I think HCl is dangerous to use on weapons. Hydrochloric acid (a.k.a. muriatic acid) in those concentrations is very corrosive and will etch carbon steel darkly. I have had no success with trying to bring out patterns consistently with more dilute solutions of HCl.

Vinegar is an excellent etchant but may take some time depending on the amount of acetic acid present. Vinegar's acidity will deteriorate with age as the acetic acid is converted to other compounds.

Ian.

Miguel 18th June 2017 05:53 PM

Hello Ian, thank you very much for your advice, much appreciated, most likely prevented a catastrophe, white vinegar it is then. I just purchased a new quantity so should be OK :) Thanks again
Miguel

mariusgmioc 19th June 2017 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Hello Ian, thank you very much for your advice, much appreciated, most likely prevented a catastrophe, white vinegar it is then. I just purchased a new quantity so should be OK :) Thanks again
Miguel


Hello Miguel,

White vinegar is not likely to work (but it is very good for cleaning the white deposits on the kitchen sink and shower).

You should use either Nital (around 4%) or Ferric Chloride (around 20%).

Diluted Perma Blue will also work but you need to employ the "reversed" process: etch the whole blade to uniform black, then gently wipe the excess blackening with cotton swabs and Pre Lim, until you get the right degree of etching to reveal the watering.

Also please note the surface to be etched should be polished to 2000-3000 grit.

For more details see the link below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=etching+wootz

Success! :)

estcrh 20th June 2017 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
If I were you, I would test the Tiger Tooth dagger for wootz, as most examples I have seen were made of wootz.

From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya, and they are a type of jambiya....one type has a thick blade and the tang is also thick. The other type is a much less well made type.....a thinner blade, a bit flexible even and also thin at the tang.....for a person of less wealth, or a youth maybe, who knows but there is a world of difference between the two types...I also have one of the lesser types and it is certainly not wootz. hard to tell with a photo but in hand the difference is clear.

Miquel can tell which type his is.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.


Thick blade and tang.

mariusgmioc 21st June 2017 09:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.


Thank you for the info! Very useful!

estcrh 21st June 2017 03:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Here must be one of the Indian Classics... The Tiger Tooth... In my view one of the most efficient dagger blades ever made. Often with a reinforced tip for piercing armour/thick clothing and with chiselled blade making for a lighter stronger blade. I assume the tang goes right through to the typical 3 lobed pommel and there is one I saw with a tiger striped horn hilt ~ at 2 below..

See1. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2495
See2. http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s995_full.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


These are good examples of the two types I mentioned, one with ivory hilt and wootz, the other with horn and not wootz.

The family of daggers known as Tiger Teeth are coming from North India, They are characterized by the slender curved blade, usually with reinforced edges and slightly thickened tip. The hilt is of a full tang style, with big bolsters, wide grip strap and very typical three lobed pommel. This specific one has a fine 8 1/2 inches blade forged from good wootz (Damascus) steel with fine gold koftgari work on the ricasso bolsters and grip strap. The grips are ivory. Total length 13 1/2 inches.




Indian tiger tooth jambiya, 33cms long when sheathed.
Out of the sheath the dagger is 30cms long with a broad 20cm blade.
The hilt is a very well selected section of horn, cut and polished to resemble Tiger stripes. The blade has two broad central fullers, a chiseled forte and a thickened armour piercing point. The sheath is timber inners covered in a finely grained leather that is finished with a pierced brass end with a bud finial.


estcrh 21st June 2017 03:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel

The second one has a "Kukri" shaped blade with a pearl and greenstone hilt and short steel Quillon's. The O/L is 9.75 ins having a blade length of 6.5 ins. The scabbard is of wood covered in leather with a steel chape.
Thank you
Miguel

Not just a "kukri" shaped blade, it is an Indian kukri, nice example, I have not seen this type of handle on a kukri, the same type of work usually seen on Indian daggers.


Miguel 21st June 2017 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya, and they are a type of jambiya....one type has a thick blade and the tang is also thick. The other type is a much less well made type.....a thinner blade, a bit flexible even and also thin at the tang.....for a person of less wealth, or a youth maybe, who knows but there is a world of difference between the two types...I also have one of the lesser types and it is certainly not wootz. hard to tell with a photo but in hand the difference is clear.

Miquel can tell which type his is.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.


Thick blade and tang.


Hello estcrh,
Thank you for the info from which I would say mine is a lesser type. Another reason I think this is the line engraving at the Rivas so. The better quality one look to be chiselled decoration.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel 21st June 2017 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya, and they are a type of jambiya....one type has a thick blade and the tang is also thick. The other type is a much less well made type.....a thinner blade, a bit flexible even and also thin at the tang.....for a person of less wealth, or a youth maybe, who knows but there is a world of difference between the two types...I also have one of the lesser types and it is certainly not wootz. hard to tell with a photo but in hand the difference is clear.

Miquel can tell which type his is.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.


Thick blade and tang.


Hello estcrh,
Thank you for the info from which I would say mine is a lesser type. Another reason I think this is the line engraving at the Rivas so. The better quality one look to be chiselled decoration.
Regards
Miguel

Jens Nordlunde 21st June 2017 03:59 PM

Look at the dagger with the blue background. Do you see the peacocks on the blade?
You often see them on early southern katars.
Ok, they are not easy to see, but with a bit of experience it should be possible.

estcrh 21st June 2017 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Look at the dagger with the blue background. Do you see the peacocks on the blade?
You often see them on early southern katars.
Ok, they are not easy to see, but with a bit of experience it should be possible.

Here is Runjeets description, he also mentions "South India".

Indian tiger tooth jambiya, 18th century, The blade is earlier and very rare, similar to blades found on hooded Katar from the Vijaynagar empire of South India (1336-1646 AD). The blade was probably traded into North India where it was mounted on this hilt, there is a possibility that the whole dagger was made in South India (The Deccan) in the North Indian ‘Tiger-Tooth’ style using a local blade.

estcrh 21st June 2017 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Hello estcrh,
Thank you for the info from which I would say mine is a lesser type. Another reason I think this is the line engraving at the Rivas so. The better quality one look to be chiselled decoration.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel, yours is in excellent condition, it looks like the chape has been polished. When you put several examples of the same type together you can see the similarities.



Miguel 21st June 2017 06:40 PM

Hello estcrh, I see what you mean they are almost identical. The scabbard and chape for this type of knife follow a similar design as do the knives, interesting.

Regarding my knife with a kukri type blade, I agree that it is Indian as made in India with an Indian style blade but I don't see it as an Indian Kukri. I have a number of kukris and the shortlist blade is 11ins, kukris are far larger weapons. In my opinion I still think it is a hunting knife made for a European. Many years ago I saw a similar size knife in a dealers shop which had a jade /green stone, slab hilt and was told by the dealer that it had been made in India as a hunting knife for a member of the British military :shrug: The size just doesn't seem right to me to be used as a kukri in my opinion.
Regards
Miguel

estcrh 21st June 2017 09:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Regarding my knife with a kukri type blade, I agree that it is Indian as made in India with an Indian style blade but I don't see it as an Indian Kukri. I have a number of kukris and the shortlist blade is 11ins, kukris are far larger weapons.

Kukri come in many different shapes and sizes.


Miguel 22nd June 2017 01:51 PM

Hello estcrh, nice selection. Have you any images of Kukris with a false back edge similar to the blade of my knife? I have not seen one which is another reason for my believing it to be a custom made knife.
Regards
Miguel


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