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-   -   strange Portuguese (?) sabre (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21700)

corrado26 24th July 2016 12:38 PM

strange Portuguese (?) sabre
 
6 Attachment(s)
I got mailed the following fotos of a probably or eventually Portuguese sabre with a very special hilt and a blade marked "real frabrica 1659". Is anyone here able to confirm the Portuguese origine? Or could this be a phantasy-item?
Thanks
corrado26

fernando 24th July 2016 12:48 PM

REAL FABRICA is written the same way both portuguese as in spanish (castilian). I would say this is an awkward fantasy made in Spain.

carlos 24th July 2016 02:22 PM

What a curious piece !!
Is possible after REAL FABRICA come the word Toledo?
Very interesting piece

Carlos

Fernando K 25th July 2016 11:10 AM

hELLO

om spanish REAL FABRICA DE..............

Fernando K

fernando 25th July 2016 11:44 AM

The Real Fabrica de Espadas was founded by Carlos III in 1761, in the old Toledo Coin Mint, much later than the date inscribed in this specimen ... which i still suggest it is a decorative item :shrug:.

Jim McDougall 25th July 2016 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
The Real Fabrica de Espadas was founded by Carlos III in 1761, in the old Toledo Coin Mint, much later than the date inscribed in this specimen ... which i still suggest it is a decorative item :shrug:.


I totally agree this 'phantastic' sword seems flamboyant enough to be something decorative. But I wonder, the script with date, might that be something commemorative?
Recently I have been working on Masonic situations with various edged weapons, and it seems that in the case of the swords used by the 'tylers' as well as general members in rituals and ceremonies, were often rather flamboyant. Some to the point of 'fantasy' I suppose.

Is it possible this might be some ceremonial item from perhaps latter 19th century that might have been from the many military orders or fraternal groups either Masonic or associated?

These often bizarre pieces (often with skull and crossbones; hand type hilts; unusual and complex hilts with symbolic ornamentation etc) seem to be relatively unrecorded (in the supposed secrecy of these groups).

Aside from these, there are the cases of theatrical props, which were often produced to carry certain themes in the characters they were used by .

Just thoughts of possibilities,

mariusgmioc 26th July 2016 11:49 AM

The pointy crossguard arms bent towards the hilt render the sword almost impossible to handle without risk of injury, I think.

I wonder if the blade is even steel or plain iron.

Cerjak 28th July 2016 01:04 PM

This kind of sword could be found In tourist shops and I realy don't think That there is any interest to discuss about such "Crazy" sword.
Best
Cerjak

fernando 28th July 2016 02:02 PM

Amen :shrug:

Jim McDougall 28th July 2016 04:28 PM

Actually pretty well made for a tourist thing in my opinion, but without handling it I cant really say. My reference to fraternal and Masonic type swords, until recent years these were typically somewhat dismissed as irrelevant to weapons collections. However, after some collectors developed an interest and pursued serious study on them, reference books followed, and they evolved into a historically viable field of study.

This extremely unusual item (as far as I know, as I do not have access to European stores or tourist shops) seems to have more detail than most commercially intended items.
Sometimes such items can as suggested, be linked to theatrical props and the like, and as they are often of some vintage, have intrinsic historical value on their own merit.

In researching certain Spanish colonial artifacts out here in the deserts of the Southwest, there have been numbers of items found in locations with historic context which eventually turned out to be either theatrical items or votive religious items of 19th century.

All I am saying is that sometimes its good to keep options open, and seek all possibilities for an item before declaring it wall hanging fodder. The historic notes provided by Fernando even give sources for the nuanced influences of the item, and that dimension offers interesting appreciation.

fernando 28th July 2016 06:05 PM

Chances that this item might be of esoteric nature were already put on the table, as also those in it could be a theatrical prop. However lacking objective evidence, it looks more probable that this is out of something substantive in what touches the scope of our forum... genuinity, age and all that. In any case, the dice are tossed, and nothing prevents the posting of evidence that drive us otherwise. It is just that, until then, it appears that, what had to be said about this item, is already said.

Cerjak 28th July 2016 06:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Actually pretty well made for a tourist thing in my opinion, but without handling it I cant really say. My reference to fraternal and Masonic type swords, until recent years these were typically somewhat dismissed as irrelevant to weapons collections. However, after some collectors developed an interest and pursued serious study on them, reference books followed, and they evolved into a historically viable field of study.

This extremely unusual item (as far as I know, as I do not have access to European stores or tourist shops) seems to have more detail than most commercially intended items.
Sometimes such items can as suggested, be linked to theatrical props and the like, and as they are often of some vintage, have intrinsic historical value on their own merit.

In researching certain Spanish colonial artifacts out here in the deserts of the Southwest, there have been numbers of items found in locations with historic context which eventually turned out to be either theatrical items or votive religious items of 19th century.

All I am saying is that sometimes its good to keep options open, and seek all possibilities for an item before declaring it wall hanging fodder. The historic notes provided by Fernando even give sources for the nuanced influences of the item, and that dimension offers interesting appreciation.

Hi Jim
I understand and respect your opinion but it is only That this sword is for me "irrealistic" also this sword is Still offered In a french auction site.
Best
Jean Luc

Jim McDougall 29th July 2016 05:33 PM

Thanks as always guys, for your candor.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi 2nd September 2016 06:54 AM

1 Attachment(s)
It may be a derived form from Chinese... I have seen the forward spike device on some Chinese variants


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