Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Oriental musket with kabyle snaphaunce lock for id. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20541)

Cerjak 30th September 2015 09:02 PM

Oriental musket with kabyle snaphaunce lock for id.
 
9 Attachment(s)
This musket has a typical kabyle lock ,the full stock is covered with panels of bone . I have never saw before an oriental gun of similar shape .
May be rick could tell me more about this well decorated gun ?
Any comment on it would be welcome.

Best
CERJAK

Kubur 1st October 2015 08:07 AM

Hi,

I have seen this one. Did you buy it???
For me it's a very good one, not Algerian/Kabyle but from Morocco.
Only the trigger looks Algerian to me.
I've seen similar before, I would say end of 19th or even beginning of 20th c.

Kubur

Cerjak 1st October 2015 01:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi,

I have seen this one. Did you buy it???
For me it's a very good one, not Algerian/Kabyle but from Morocco.
Only the trigger looks Algerian to me.
I've seen similar before, I would say end of 19th or even beginning of 20th c.

Kubur


Hi Kubur,

Yes I Bought it.
If you have a picture for a musket with this similar shape ,please post it here.
I already spend a lot of times looking on George Cameron Stone's and Elgood books etc.. but this not found similar exemplar.
I have many morrocan riffles but no one like this one ,I aggree that the snaphaunce lock is morrocan but I still not sure that the full gun has the same origine .
Best
Cerjak

Kubur 1st October 2015 02:15 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi Cerjak,

I will post some Moroccan examples later.
The trigger guard is also very similar to Sardinian flintlocks.
But it's true that this model is not very common.

Best,
Kubur

Kubur 1st October 2015 11:01 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I found it, look very similar...
:)

Cerjak 2nd October 2015 07:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
I found it, look very similar...
:)

Hi Kubur

Thank you very much it is realLy similar product .
From where you did you found it and what is the description for this gun ?
Best
Cerjak

Kubur 2nd October 2015 08:19 AM

Hi Cerjak,

I don't remember where I got that, but I like to collect pictures, as we see it is useful!

We had two connected threads in the past,
one on koummiya
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...koummiya+stones

one on Moroccan pistols
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...oroccan+pistols

And I have seen some swords with the same decorations, paneled bones and semi-precious stones inlays.

My idea / opinion is simple, some of them have bad blades or fake locks, they were made for tourist market at the end of 19th c. and beginning of 20th c.
Others have very good blades and good locks (like yours) and they were made to be used in fantasia or other events...

Kind regards,
Kubur

rickystl 2nd October 2015 10:41 PM

Hi Cerjak.
First of all, congratulations. That is definately one of the more interesting long guns I've seen. It's beautiful, interesting, and curious all at the same time. LOL.
I'm going to say it is Moroccan (likely), or possibly Algerian. The lock looks like locally made, copied from the English pattern of Snaphaunce. It would be worth removing the lock to see if there are any marks on back of the lock plate.
The camel bone inlay and circle decoration definately looks Moroccan. While the trigger looks Algerian. But as Kubur mentions, the trigger guard looks some what Sardinian, but shorter, and a bit wider.
But as you point out, the really unique feature is the Western/European style butt stock. It would be interesting to know how THICK the butt stock is? Is it thin? Or is it closer to 2" thick, similar to European guns ?
Unlike many of the guns that were made for general re-sale, I believe this gun was made exactly to a customer's specifications. The stock reminds me of the Bulgarian style long guns, made in the Balkans, with the stock decorated with pearl panels over most of the stock. But your's with a definate Moroccan design and lock.
A super interesting gun. And a beauty!!!! Would sure look good in my gun room. LOL ;)
Rick.

Ivo 3rd October 2015 06:54 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The stock reminds me of the Bulgarian style long guns, made in the Balkans, with the stock decorated with pearl panels over most of the stock. But your's with a definate Moroccan design and lock.


Hello everybody ,
this is a really interesting musket but I do not think that reminds the typical Bulgarian musket / boyliya /

Regards,
Ivo

Cerjak 3rd October 2015 01:20 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Cerjak.
First of all, congratulations. That is definately one of the more interesting long guns I've seen. It's beautiful, interesting, and curious all at the same time. LOL.
I'm going to say it is Moroccan (likely), or possibly Algerian. The lock looks like locally made, copied from the English pattern of Snaphaunce. It would be worth removing the lock to see if there are any marks on back of the lock plate.
The camel bone inlay and circle decoration definately looks Moroccan. While the trigger looks Algerian. But as Kubur mentions, the trigger guard looks some what Sardinian, but shorter, and a bit wider.
But as you point out, the really unique feature is the Western/European style butt stock. It would be interesting to know how THICK the butt stock is? Is it thin? Or is it closer to 2" thick, similar to European guns ?
Unlike many of the guns that were made for general re-sale, I believe this gun was made exactly to a customer's specifications. The stock reminds me of the Bulgarian style long guns, made in the Balkans, with the stock decorated with pearl panels over most of the stock. But your's with a definate Moroccan design and lock.
A super interesting gun. And a beauty!!!! Would sure look good in my gun room. LOL ;)
Rick.

Hi RICK
Thank you very much the good analyze you have made for this gun, as mentioned by Kubur it is definitely not a tourist gun but for as you wrote a weapon made on request.
Unfortunately I still donít have received it so I will answer about thickness the butt stock .
About trigger guard ,I see some similarity with the Moroccan Taouzilt type from Ras el oued ( see Elgood Firearms of the Islamic world Nį39.

Best

Cerjak

rickystl 3rd October 2015 02:31 PM

Hi Cerjak.
Yes, now that you mention it, the trigger guard and butt stock do resemble the Taouzilt style of long gun. Very observant of you. It appears that all the camel bone panels and other decoration is still intact, and looks to be in good condition. A super neat Moroccan gun. And please post some additional photos when you receive the gun!!! :o
Rick.

Kubur 16th December 2016 06:25 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi
I found another one, same shape.
Again very beautifull and looks functionnal.
Most probably Morocco very late 19th or early 20th.
Best,
Kubur

Battara 17th December 2016 01:51 AM

W :eek: W!

What great examples!!!

rickystl 17th December 2016 04:31 PM

Another interesting feature I notice on Cerjak's gun is the longer front finial on the trigger guard. You don't usually see them this long on Moroccan long guns.
It seems the customer wanted a bit of Western influence with the shape of the butt stock and trigger guard. Most interesting piece you don't normally encounter.
Rick

rickystl 17th December 2016 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi
I found another one, same shape.
Again very beautifull and looks functionnal.
Most probably Morocco very late 19th or early 20th.
Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur.

WOW!!! Another beauty. This one has an Algerian style miquelet lock.

Rick

Kubur 17th December 2016 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Kubur.

WOW!!! Another beauty. This one has an Algerian style miquelet lock.

Rick


Hi Rick,
That's not mine! I just found the photos...
But i will post soon one new pistol!
Best

rickystl 18th December 2016 02:14 PM

Hi Kubur.

No. I realize that is just a photo. I wish it was yours......or better yet mine !! LOL !! :D

Please do post your pistol when you have a chance. By the way, my Torador is finished and on it's way to me. I'll post a final update next weekend.

Rick


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